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Subject: The Key of House


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Original Message 1/28                 Date: 20-Nov-02  @  10:45 AM   -   The Key of House

Steve Webster

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Disclaimer: Please don’t laugh at me for this.
I know you lot talk about using your ears but I have zero musical skills. Well, that’s not strictly true. It’s just that my theory doesn’t stretch to the “circle of fifths” and my chord progressions are quite basic. Anyway, I have reached the conclusion that both Cm and Am are my favourite keys (both the blues scales though). I find Cm to be quite “techno” sounding (kinda old school) and Am to sound quite “magical” sounding. Would you agree or have I totally imagined it? Basically I wanted to know if you guys think that a lot of (proper) house seems to be in both these keys.

Ps- no sniggering at the back there :-)



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Message 2/28                 Date: 20-Nov-02  @  11:00 AM   -   RE: The Key of House

bedwyr

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well, there's plenty of ideas about different keys having different "emotions" so rest assured, you're not barmy. those classical bods were well into it. can't give you any examples though. anyone?

house key? ... yale! oh, ha haha, ho ho, he, hmm ... i'll get me coat.



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Message 3/28                 Date: 20-Nov-02  @  11:34 AM   -   RE: The Key of House

xoxos

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hmm.. i tend to nurture my uuh 'uninformed biases' as long as they contribute to my creative or other projects.. is that a useful 'truth' or not??



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Message 4/28                 Date: 20-Nov-02  @  11:48 AM   -   RE: The Key of House

Steve Webster

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I am not asking the key of life. Please produce me.



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Message 5/28                 Date: 20-Nov-02  @  07:59 PM   -   RE: The Key of House

xoxos

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i'll keep my mouth shut next time then, won't i. sure, but if you don't bring a 20 you have to rub my feet.



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Message 6/28                 Date: 26-Nov-02  @  04:40 PM   -   RE: The Key of House

Gideon

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The old classical composers did tend to associate different moods to different keys (and by extension also to the chords in different keys, even if dealing with the "fundamental" or "fifth" chords, etc.).
HOWEVER, this practice is meaningful only when using "pure" scales: scales which have supposedly "perfect" golden-rule relationships between the frequencies of the fifth note, the fourth note, and the fundamantal note of the scale. If you use such a perfect scale to tune your piano for C scale, then all other scales will sound "slightly strange" in various ways (depending on the scale). Playing your melody in the other scales will not sound exactly as if you transposed it on the scales we use today.

So what do we use today ?!
We use a sort of "averaged" mapping of notes to frequencies, where the logarithmic difference between all semi-tones is allways 1/12, regardless of which scale you're actually dealing with. Obviously, the same melody transposed, and same chords (primary, fifth, etc.), will just sound "the same", just at slightly higher frequencies, without those "slightly strange" effects.



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Message 7/28                 Date: 26-Nov-02  @  10:07 PM   -   RE: The Key of House

k

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isn't 'smells like teen spirit' by nirvana riff a circle of 5ths?

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 8/28                 Date: 27-Nov-02  @  08:47 AM   -   RE: The Key of House

Steve Webster

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I like A minor. I'll stick to it.



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Message 9/28                 Date: 27-Nov-02  @  12:55 PM   -   RE: The Key of House

IntoxicatingSounds

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Yes Gideon is correct, in theory there is no difference in "sound" between different keys, just a difference in pitch. Two things to consider... Getting the bass line in the right pitch range. Too low and it will sound woolly and lack punch, too high and it won't have the necessary power. This can be surprisingly critical and even a difference of a couple of semitones can make a big difference to the feel of a track. This could explain the subjective difference between Am and Cm. The second thing is if you are hoping djs will play your tracks choose a key that will fit with other tracks in the same genre. Even the most tone-deaf dj will notice that mixing two tracks that are a semitone apart doesn't sound quite right. For this reason Cm (relative minor of E flat) might not be a good choice. C sharp minor may be better. You can't go wrong with Am though.



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Message 10/28                 Date: 27-Nov-02  @  01:51 PM   -   RE: The Key of House

bill e

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i'm no theorist or dj, but once your track gets pitched up/down by the dj, then isn't this gonna change the key a bit anyway? Or is the + or - 8 not large enough to make a nasty change to the pitch?



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Message 11/28                 Date: 27-Nov-02  @  02:32 PM   -   RE: The Key of House

Steve Webster

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Thanks for the response Intox. Why do you think that I can't go wrong with A minor though?



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Message 12/28                 Date: 27-Nov-02  @  04:41 PM   -   RE: The Key of House

bedwyr

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a minor is relative minor of c - no sharps and flats? i dunno.

but yeah, records are at different speeds so having to pitch them changes the, erm, pitch.

all those ejay things are in the same key though i think. could even be a minor.



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Message 13/28                 Date: 27-Nov-02  @  05:01 PM   -   RE: The Key of House

IntoxicatingSounds

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Sure you will alter the pitch to get things in time but if you've got two records at the same tempo that sound in tune you might think "these will go together well, I'll have a go at mixing them". If one of the records is in E flat or something odd you will have to alter the pitch to get it in tune then its going to be maybe 10 or 15 bpm faster so you're then looking to mix it with something very different. I'm not saying it's impossible but it would just put put a lot of people off. If you want djs to play your stuff make it easy for them. They're generally not very clever  

Deano



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Message 14/28                 Date: 28-Nov-02  @  08:41 PM   -   RE: The Key of House

BJT

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House key - G Major 7th definetly.



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Message 15/28                 Date: 29-Nov-02  @  04:19 AM   -   RE: The Key of House

djjessex

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lets not forget the brown note. the freq that makes us shit our pants...ew.



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Message 16/28                 Date: 29-Nov-02  @  12:46 PM   -   RE: The Key of House

Steve Webster

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Nah, the G key sounds too Liberty X/ Christine Aguilera.



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Message 17/28                 Date: 30-Nov-02  @  05:57 PM   -   RE: The Key of House

Pongoid

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What a thoroughly ludicrous question!!! Time and research will teach you that key has no bearing on the type of music, and applies more to intonation of instruments like horns. Ones that use a tempered tuning like synths, and pianos and stringed instruments, you will hear have a consistent harmonic series. Some synths will allow you to use relative intonation, and some another type of tuning called Hermetic, but the point of is to say that your question is just kinda silly. Any key will do, if you arrange the sharps and flats correctly when you play. Some are easier to play in, but sonicly, all of them work.

Ape



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Message 18/28                 Date: 03-Dec-02  @  11:23 PM   -   RE: The Key of House

BJT

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LOL



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Message 19/28                 Date: 06-Dec-02  @  06:27 PM   -   RE: The Key of House

Steve Webster

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But Pongoid, I heard you say in a recent thread that you like the key of D Minor ("a sad key" you said). Why did you say that if key has no relevance to making music? :-)



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Message 20/28                 Date: 06-Dec-02  @  07:59 PM   -   RE: The Key of House

errata

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Of course the key has relevance... i think maybe what he's saying is that it's silly to suggest that a certain genre is best in a certain key. Ya know?

But then, it can be dangerous to suggest that you know what someone else is saying, eh?

e



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Message 21/28                 Date: 07-Dec-02  @  03:39 AM   -   RE: The Key of House

Pongoid

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Steve,
I think you missed the reference to This is Spinal Tap. I was so very much joking.


Key really only has relevance to a harmonic series. See, as you go on in your studies, you will learn about things like modes, where if you alter the orders of sharps and flats, you'll be altering the mode, but then you move that mode around on the note series, and it becomes another key. Basic example A minor=C major= another key in Dorian=another key in Lydian=another key in Mixolydian=another key in Phrygian, etc. The thing is that all of those different keys use the exact same set of notes in them. The only difference is the way you approach the harmonic series.


Where you start, where you end and how you get there are what matters. The names of the keys are almost completely irrelevant, especially in instruments with tempered tunings, like pianos, synthesizers, and fretted instruments. Like I said before, you'll start to hear differences when you start playing with real horn players because their instruments are tunes to the harmonic series in a particular key typically, so that when they switch keys, they may sound a little out of tune with the other instruments. This is where key signiture matters, but when you're talking about stuff, with almost completely synthesiszed and sampled sounds, that shit don't matter, cuz the instruments are all using tempered tunings.


Does ANY of this make sense now? Do you now see why your question regarding the key of a particular music form is completely rediculous?
I'm not trying to bash you over the head, just make light of what I find to be a very humorous question.

Gideon also tried to explain it in a more succinct fashion.


Ape



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Message 22/28                 Date: 07-Dec-02  @  04:32 PM   -   RE: The Key of House

xoxos

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see my post regarding entrainment vsti for the filler on that  

ride the energy cycles, don't be a helpless pawn.



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Message 23/28                 Date: 08-Dec-02  @  04:09 AM   -   RE: The Key of House

Pongoid

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lol



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Message 24/28                 Date: 11-Dec-02  @  12:13 AM   -   RE: The Key of House

jp

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hmmm, i never thought about the intonation of horns or how that relates to the key of the tune. i have had the discussion however with a friend about how alot of pop music is written in e so that it is easier for guitarists to play...f requiring a constant strech of the finger.

i'm not sure how much of that makes sense to me.

what i have noticed in my moronic begings is that it is a good idea to match the key of different parts. usually i write the bassline first, and then build chords and such around that. i don't often think of modes and i wonder if this is because i just think of the "right" keys all the way up and down the keyboard.

stupid, i know, but at least i'm trying.

that said, it does seem that alot of chords don't exactly fit into the kind of house music i'm after. for this reason i have stuck with minors. (usually f sharp minor) however, i think this is limiting and i'm trying to break out of always using minors with blues scale soloing. tonight i will try again to use major chords without sounding cheesy. the minor scales do get a bit depressing after a while.



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Message 25/28                 Date: 11-Dec-02  @  09:16 AM   -   RE: The Key of House

Steve Webster

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Pongoid, I don’t get the spinal tap humour bit? Where did that happen? Anyway, like JP said, I’ve read that when writing in the blues scale, guitarists love working in the key of E. Also, that everyone loves playing in the key of C. Why is this if key ain’t important? It can’t be cos the F string is hard to reach, can it? Surely, its more to do with the pitch and how the harmonic frequencies work together?

Which brings me onto my second point. Lets take octave one on my keyboard. Now, when I write bass, it don’t start sounding good till the root note or the 7th note of the key I’m writing in is up at G/Ab/A. Then it just takes on that middley sound. Basically up at say A1, the fundamental frequency is 110 hz. This makes for a nice, thick sound, which is what I’m after.
I understand (a bit) about the points you have raised but don’t feel that my question IS as silly as you are making out. :-)



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Message 26/28                 Date: 11-Dec-02  @  09:36 AM   -   RE: The Key of House

bedwyr

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no, it really is to do with it being easier to play certain instruments in certain keys.



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Message 27/28                 Date: 11-Dec-02  @  06:48 PM   -   RE: The Key of House

errata

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OK, so now after 30 years of modern pop music have we learned to like certain keys, and chord progressions because they're easier to play? Because I've had to WORK to avoid writing in "e" (I do it a lot, without consciously recognizing it... it's a pleasant key to write a track in)... I deliberately write in other keys because of this. Have I just learned to like it because of lazy guitarists? DAMN!!! hehehe

This is like the cliche of a new electronic musician working in C because middle C is highlighted in all the SW...

e



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Message 28/28                 Date: 11-Dec-02  @  08:10 PM   -   RE: The Key of House

xoxos

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duke used to do stuff like write a piece aroun this one guy's horn that had a fucked up valve that buzzed on one note, to use that buzz in the right places et al.

double (hiphop guy i mention) used to use dr5s.. all that stuff has this funny discordant feel to it.. cos he used to compose by forming patterns on the 'guitar' 6x6 matrix, ie. straight down, diagonals. not in any sort of "key" at all, works more like rising energy, falling energy. he can play the hell out of keys, trombone et c.

i'm saying osmething here, but not saying it more directly than that. cos i'm cryptic at times.



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