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Subject: I thought we were talking about drums


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Original Message 1/12                 Date: 09-Mar-01  @  07:52 PM   -   I thought we were talking about drums

The Dole Mole

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I thought this chatroom was about exchanging tips, tricks and advice regarding beats. Everyone's on about digital plug-ins. I would like to start again. Here are my questions.

1. How do you build a grooving drum track?

2. Is groove based around the relationship betweem the hats and the snare?

3. If you have a 16th note closed hi-hat pattern, how much should you swing the 2nd and 4th hat?

4. If I want to make a really grooving 4x4 house pattern, how do I put that driving feel into it?

5. What's the best way to emulate the live feel using a programmed shaker?

6. Is it best to avoid using 16th note swing quantise setings in Logic?

7. Are there any tricks? Is it good to wobble drum sounds by using modulation? How do you do it?

8. Are there any tips on how to make your drum samples really attack?

I know there are no rules in music, but there must be some tried and tested tips and tricks!



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Message 2/12                 Date: 09-Mar-01  @  10:17 PM   -   RE: I thought we were talking about drums

shpongledboy

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1. Test, test, test, test,test... ...few years later... test, test, test,test... ...then you have learned something.

2. If you mean only drums... then it would be more like kick drum + snare + hihats. But in 4 to the floor beat it's like you said... snares + hats. Kicks are more quantised in that genre but you can experiment with bassline.

3. Test, test, test, test,test... maybe one 64th note... teeeeeessstt.

4. Use also 32th notes with snares and hats + groove.

5. Buy a shaker(they are cheap) or do it your self... then record you playing it... cut and quantise if you can't play it good.

6. Don't know. I use Cubase.

7. Pitch modulation sounds very bad in drums. But if you do some experimental stuff and modulate pitch/cutoff frequency/whatever you might find some interesting sounds.

8. Compression = COMPRESSION.

Cheers,
Shpongled.



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Message 3/12                 Date: 10-Mar-01  @  04:36 PM   -   RE: I thought we were talking about drums

The Dole Mole

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That's the weakest answer to a question I've ever heard. Test, test, test as you say. I've been doing that for 18 months. I must be not cut out for this music making lark then.

You talk about only using 32 note quantise on hats and snares. What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying that if I was to program in an open hat on every 3rd sixteen (ie-standard hi-hat pattern=4 per bar)then I should pull it back 120 ticks (ie 240 ticks =a sixteen note in Logic). I've tried that and the beat just falls over itself. Swinging the hat by one 64th, as you said, sounds very rigid. Should I be making beats 2 and 4(ie snare stage of beat) come in earlier by say 5 ticks, then try and move everything else accordingly. Please can someone take out 10 mins to help? I'm pulling my hair out!

Ps. I know about the importance of compression.



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Message 4/12                 Date: 10-Mar-01  @  09:12 PM   -   RE: I thought we were talking about drums

gb

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Use Cakewalk then. It has a groove quantise feature that does that whole thing automagically. Doesn't Logic have that ? What a bummer...



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Message 5/12                 Date: 11-Mar-01  @  12:07 AM   -   RE: I thought we were talking about drums

k

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calm down mate... have you experimented with velocity?.. have you downloaded some of the files from the drum groove files listing and checked them out for what they are doing?... you can have underlying pulsing waves driving under the beat - the groove is based ont he relationship between the bass & the drums and the top end hats etc... varying velocity is very important to get grooves...



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Message 6/12                 Date: 11-Mar-01  @  12:42 AM   -   RE: I thought we were talking about drums

s20

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as someone already said -
1. to get your perfect grooves
not only try different time offsets with the 2nd 4th
but also (and most importantly!) vary velocity on the
whole pattern - : make every second of your normal closed hats say half the vel and so on - u'll hear how
that sort of thing injects a new groove into the beat.

2. TUNE your drums so that the whole pattern creates a
melody as well as tight beat.

3.LAYER your drums untill u get the desired sound - layer 3 (or more...) snares on top of each other 2 get 1 fat and chunky sounding snare, do the same with hi hats, etc.

4.STUDY and grab the grooves from your favorite tunes - take your time 2 recycle(!) the sampled beat and study
the structure of it in sequencer (after importing the recycle! generated midi file) and take notice exactly where the different drums are playing and even extract the actual groove from the midi file to apply it 2 your
patterns - u culd easily build a massive library of grooves just by doing the above while learning directly
from your fav top pros!

Question: can u visualize the drum loop when u hear it,
how exactly would it look like on your sequencer grid?
(including velocity and timie offsets)

If no then study and try 2 recreate those drums heard on fav records untill u can and then... Mmmm then comes
the time when u can call yourself a drum god  

Happy drumming - dada.



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Message 7/12                 Date: 12-Mar-01  @  11:20 AM   -   RE: I thought we were talking about drums

Jasper

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flipping heck! how about I write your stuff for you?
7 -- > lfo sounds wikkid on drums to modulate pitch/attack/decay/filter/resonance < -- suck it and see...
you need a sampler that lets you sync the lfo (every sampler has one) to midi and then patch the lfo to various parameters outlined above.. but as with anything, one sounds lfo pleasure will be another sounds lfo poison.



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Message 8/12                 Date: 12-Mar-01  @  02:26 PM   -   RE: I thought we were talking about drums

Jez

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great advice..I'm on LFO case..

with any great and original drum groove you hear there is always a lot of velocity attention and layering of different sounds, like s20 is saying...to be original you can't just stick with say, a plain and 'untweaked' set of 909 samples...sample loads of different drums and make your own banks...then patch the LFO to filters etc...


re-sample the whole sequence from Cubase or whatever sequencer your using, convert to audio, chop up again in re-cycle, then re-sequence and keep doing the same thing til you get the desired effect which will eventually sound totally different from the original...oh and if you can be arsed...



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Message 9/12                 Date: 12-Mar-01  @  03:30 PM   -   RE: I thought we were talking about drums

Jasper

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heh - got to get a plugin mention into this thread now (just read top again) - checkout opcodes filter - it's a pretty old dx plugin with three filters which can be any type (lo mid hi peek sin etc) mapped to all sorts of stuff - you can modulate it with pretty mutch anything.. great for those mad loops.



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Message 10/12                 Date: 13-Mar-01  @  03:44 PM   -   RE: I thought we were talking about drums

YonceNmild

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Try playing hats live then quantisizing I'm not a good drummer so sometimes I slow the tempo down to record. try layering different sounds at low volumes with hats I got a real nice hi hat loop by layering a identical tamborine loop with it. Then sample the tamborine loop apply a band pass filter and modulate the cuttoff at 1/8T (triplet) then sample them both together mmmmm funky. That isn't necessarily a formula just an example try making your hats out of different layers with different effects/filters on each layer. You can get that groovy swingy feel with: Velocity, Delay, filter, gates, swing or groove quantisize. Play with all these different parameters don't be afraid to get extreme with the settings and let your ears tell ya whats funky.



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Message 11/12                 Date: 13-Mar-01  @  05:50 PM   -   RE: I thought we were talking about drums

dance, rummy!

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I know k said it already, but get yourself
some midi files of beats to look at.... either on this site, or the other 100,000 midi file sites on the net... load them into Logic and look at the structure.....


sure, it's hard finding dance midi stuff, but keyfax and others make dance midi file disks for purchase.... $30 and you're rollin' with lots of material




my d&b tracks got a groovier feel once I started using
triplet timing on my hats... see the 12step.mid
file in the DT files section...




another thing I noticed is that it doesn't take
much to make a beat skip and groove.... even ONE
extra 32nd in a row of 16th hats might just put in the shuffle you need...



I'm not the pro, but if you're making 4floor stuff, i don't think it goes too much beyond that....
starting out, I was overwriting all of my stuff....
as the jazz players say, less is more.



don't give up... especially not after only 18 months...... I tried for 3 years before I had anything worth listening to, only to realize it really wasn't worth listening to.... like any worthwhile creative activity, this stuff takes years to do, and even more years to do WELL.... so, be a masochist....




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Message 12/12                 Date: 14-Mar-01  @  09:48 PM   -   RE: I thought we were talking about drums

recycler

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recycle is an excellent tool for learning about drum programming. I think playing with recycle will be extremely helpful in understanding the relationship between different grooves and their appearance on the drum grid. And the ability to "convert to groove" in Cubase (Logic must have it too) is almost criminal. Expropriate some one elses lifetime of rhythmic study in about 2 seconds.



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