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Subject: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

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Original Message 1/41 Date: 27-Feb-01 @ 02:06 PM - BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

ANALOGUE ALAN

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MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE SUBMITTING TOWARDS THE DARKSIDE. YES I'M TALKING ABOUT THE EVIL OF ALL EVIL'S, "THE DIGITAL DOMAIN"!
NOW LETS GET ONE THING STRAIGHT, I'M NO EXPERT PRODUCER, JUST A POOR MUSIC MAKER WHO WORKS IN HIS BEDROOM 5 DAYS A WEEK AND AS AN ASSISTANT ENGINNEER 2 DAYS A WEEK. BUT LIKE MOST OF YOU GUYS I'M QUIETLY PLUGGING AWAY LEARNING A FEW NEW THINGS EVERY COUPLE OF WEEKS AND HOPING TO MAKE IT ONE DAY. NOW'S THAT'S SORTED OUT, BACK TO MY POINT-BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DOMAIN !
TIMO MAAS, PEACE DIVISION, FUTURE SHOCK, 16B AND MOST OF THE OTHER TEC/TRIBAL/PROG PRODUCERS ALL OPERATE USING THE ANALOGUE FORCE (THE GOOD SIDE).
I,VE BEEN READING ABOUT SOME OF YOU GUYS TALKING ABOUT DITCHING MOST OF YOUR OUTBOARD IN FAVOUR OF VST/LOGIC AUDIO AND ALL THOSE WONDERFUL PLUG-INS. DON'T DO IT UNLESS YOU WANT THAT THIN,CLEAN,LITE,UNWARM SOUND. LETS KEEP THINGS TUFF,DIRTY AND ORGANIC-ESPECIALLY DRUMS!
OK, SO SOME OF THE PLUG-IN EQ'S, GATES AND DELAYS ARE USABLE, BUT THE REVERBS,COMPRESSORS,DISTORTION BOXES AND CHORUS UNITS SOUND HORRIBLE. THEY SOUND TOO CLEAN AND LACK DEPTH.
THIS IS A CALL TO ALL BEDROOM PRODUCERS WHO ARE THINKING OF MAKING THE SWITCH, DON'T DO IT! I KNOW ITS TEMPTING, ALL THOSE PLUG-INS, THE AUTOMATION CAPABILITIES AND THE ECONOMIES OF AN ENTIRE STUDIO ON SCREEN.
BUT IF YOU WANT THE SOUND OF ALL THE TOP PRODUCERS THEN YOUR BEST TO STAY WITH AN ANALOGUE DESK, OUTBOARD COMPESSOR,GATES AND LEXICON REVERB UNITS. PLEASE GUYS STAY HERE ON THE GOOD SIDE, USE THE ANALOGUE FORCE AND REMEMBER, THE GRASS IS NOT GREENER OVER THERE!

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Message 2/41 Date: 27-Feb-01 @ 04:34 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

Jasper

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I agree with your point in principle, but it's the cost you know?

also, turn off the caps, it's difficult to read and most people won't even bother.

I suppose most people here wouldn't say no to a nice analogue desk, lexicon reverb (I suppose you do mean the top end rack unit) and various 5000 pound compressors to use on the hats.. but mate, you've got to be realistic.

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Message 3/41 Date: 27-Feb-01 @ 05:52 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

r-tek

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I assumed the caps were there to make it harder for us to figure out who this really is.And you`re a twat BTW alan, find something thats actually important to bitch on about.

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Message 4/41 Date: 27-Feb-01 @ 05:54 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

trypt

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Aren't all lex reverbs digital algorithms? I
kinda-sorta agree with you, analog does sound
better for most things, but all those "top producers"
also use K2000's, wavestations, DX's, VA's.....it's
all about having a balance. A jup 8 can't do a
k5000 and a k5000 can't do a jup 8. Different
species, different DNA.

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Message 5/41 Date: 27-Feb-01 @ 06:37 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

Frostbyte

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I think it was a tongue in cheek kind of thing:

Analogue Anal

another baiter I guess.

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Message 6/41 Date: 27-Feb-01 @ 06:44 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

0/d

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I gotta agree with outboard being analogue,the thought of an all digital compresser to use creativly makes me shiver,whats the point? no crunch,no noise distortion,no added harmonics,Just my own stupid opinion.

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Message 7/41 Date: 27-Feb-01 @ 11:12 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

ANALOGUE ANAL

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Yes it was tongue in cheek and sorry about the caps, I didn,t know it would look like that. r-tek you've got to calm down mate, try and relax, maybe think about getting yourself a girlfriend. Anyway I do think the Analogue/Digital debate is worth talking about and it doesn't have to expensive. You could have yourself 1 dbx 766 (amazing pumping stereo compressor), 2 160x mono compressors (wicked on kicks and basses) and a Lexicon PMC 70 (dark 80,s sound)for under �900. These bits of outboard will last your whole music making life. Take care.

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Message 8/41 Date: 28-Feb-01 @ 09:45 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

Jez

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hey mate, I saw futureshock down The End on saturday and they were using an akai 3000xl, and that red star box thingy and that was it..

anyway, your chatting shit cos all the best producers these days covert their midi to audio, and use a combination in most cases of outboard compressors and plug-ins..it just depends on the sounds your using..there is no 'standard' these days..and why spend 900 quid on outboard when you can get all the plug-ins you want for free these days (all of us have our dodgy hacker mates and you know that!)...save the cash and go to australia instead for two weeks...

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Message 9/41 Date: 01-Mar-01 @ 06:50 AM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

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do you mean the Red Sounds 'Dark-Star' Jez ?? -

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Message 10/41 Date: 01-Mar-01 @ 02:36 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

ANALOGUE ANAL

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Hey Jez it was a darkstar synth (as used by Cass and Slide) and they use that when they do their DJ sets. The guy that used to be a record label boss DJ,s and the engineer guy triggers samples from the sampler. That's it, they were DJing, not making tunes. Analogue forever. Take care.

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Message 11/41 Date: 01-Mar-01 @ 09:03 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

r-tek

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so whats a "girlfriend" then? Are they analogue or digital?So ummm......anyway, so you`re saying I need to spend 900 notes on outboard in order for my tunes to sound good? I paid that for an 01v with the extra ins. Now I`m not dumb, I can tell the difference between analogue and digital and the digital stuff sometime lacks that certain something but the bottom line is, exactly how important is that from a bedroom producers point of view? My music sounded shit when I was using all analogue and now its likewise with a digital rig, if I was actually any good at this then it`d sound good no matter what. Only difference being how much more functionality I`ve got for my hard-earned now, I dont feel nothing like as held back as before trying to think my way round things all the time.

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Message 12/41 Date: 02-Mar-01 @ 12:19 AM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

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i'm bored so i'll bite. the following that alan
mentioned are digital: 2 160x mono compressors
(wicked on kicks and basses) and a Lexicon PMC
70. still, the mathmatics in the lexicon units are
great. i've got an mpx 500 and to me it does sound
better than reverb plug ins. i also have a k2000
which is also digital and it makes some
outragously warm bass. and i used to use it for
drums too, but now i've been working more with
reason for drums. i also have a juno 60 which to
me sounds better than the partialy digital 106 that
used to reside in my studio. what does all that
mean? i don't limit myself to analog or digital.
they're both valid means. and there are PLENTY of
top producers that use mainly digital. besides, alot
of "pro" tracks these days are multi-tracked audio
for final mixdown anyway. there are some sounds
that you can only get from analog gear (roland
space echo...mmmmmm)...but i wouldn't say the
whole studio, or even the majority of the studio,
should be analog.

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Message 13/41 Date: 02-Mar-01 @ 01:01 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

BOO

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Mr JP, DBX 160x mono compressors are not digital, they are analogue units and they do sound fat.

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Message 14/41 Date: 02-Mar-01 @ 01:55 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

ANALOGUE ANAL

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Hey r-tek, your saying that you think your tracks are not up to scratch and you feel fustrated. What do you mean, programming, mixing or everything? Maybe if you list the exact problems your having we can try and sort them out.
I know what its like, I sat in my bedroom for two years, getting really fustrated about why my tunes never sounded like the people I was listening to. It wasn't until I got a job in a studio making tea and doing shop runs that I really started to learn the tips and tricks and now I reckon I moved up to division 2. Maybe we can exchange some ideas. Oh and JP both dbx compressors (766 & 160x,s)I talked about are analogue, not digital. Take care.

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Message 15/41 Date: 02-Mar-01 @ 05:24 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

syprik

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DBx 166Xl is even sweeter for the booming kicks

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Message 16/41 Date: 02-Mar-01 @ 07:46 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

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well, i guess i'm talking out of my arse. i have a
166xl and i like the way it sounds. i guess i
thought it was digital 'cause it doesn't use a tube.
you sure it's not digital?

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Message 17/41 Date: 03-Mar-01 @ 01:52 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

r-tek

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I appreciate the offer of help, but I`m doing ok really, I was trying to make a point more than anything. My musics definately not reflecting what I`m trying to do yet, but its getting there so I`ll just keep plugging away.Weird thing is, when I started I was always trying to make it ruff but never quite hitting hte mark, now I`ve changed tact to something a bit prettier sounding I can`t help but make it sound ruff. Bizarre.

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Message 18/41 Date: 03-Mar-01 @ 03:55 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

Jez

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yeah it was the Red Sounds 'Dark Star' that was it...so you were there Mr Analogue Anal?
fuck me, small world..that was a great night. Ended up down there cos Home was a pile of shite.
I was the one behind the DJ booth trying to chat up Sarah Cox but getting shamelessly turned away...haha. Did you see her mate? She was mashed...I think she's going out with the guy from Futureshock...dunno though..ah who cares..

all I can say is that you must all have dollars cause I'm not going back to outboard FX now...I'm gonna get a new pc asap, sort out my latency problems with my soundcard and just covert all my midi to audio and use plugs...but then again my outboard was pretty poor in retrospect..I had a zoom 1201 and 1204 and an alesis 3630...I really liked the zoom's but their outputs were a bit too noisy..so once I had my track as a .wav file to be mastered I always ended up using denoiser and declicker plugs in soundforge to sort out the noise which got a pain after a while...with Timeworks reverb you get no noise and the quality of the reverb itself is top class...not to mention the compressor...so smooth. But then again most people have to pay for a package like that...

I'll be on miami beach in the summer with the money from my outboard gear...not.

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Message 19/41 Date: 03-Mar-01 @ 04:16 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

ANALOGUE ANAL

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Hey r-tek, I didn't mean my offer of help to come across as condescending, I'm no expert. I am more interested in people's working methods. What sort of stuff are you making? I'm going for a techy sort of sound (but not tec house)that works in big rooms, a sort of cross between Futureshock and Starecase (from Bristol and recording on Hope Records). I'm trying for big sounding tunes with techno noises, no cheese. I use an AKAI MPC 3000 for my drums and while your limited to 96 ticks per quarter note, because there's no midi cables, USB ports, Midi expresses involved, it tends to sound quite tight as there's no time delay.ie when an event happens, thats when you hear it. How do you get your drum tracks going, do you use a dedicated drum module or samples? Also how do you get your groove going, do you keep 1/4 and 1/8 notes straight and just swing 16ths, 32's and triplets or do you pull beats 2 & 4 (ie snare hits) forward and move everything else accordingly. Lastly what are you using for bass, i'm a bit bored of my Juno 106 and would be interested in other peoples recommendations. Take care.

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Message 20/41 Date: 03-Mar-01 @ 04:25 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

ANALOGUE ANAL

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Hey Jez, you seem to go out both nights every weekend. I hope your looking after your brain. What sort of stuff are you making? Finally has anyone got a clue how you make those reverse kick sounds you hear alot in Timo Maas records. I,ve tried reversing 50 different kicks but it still sounded weak. Am I reversing the right sound or is it short bass notes I should be reversing? Take care.

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Message 21/41 Date: 03-Mar-01 @ 07:08 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

Jez

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I write sorta tech/house type stuff..check my site above if you wanna hear some of it. And thats not a p4p plug by the way cos you don't make peanuts off that site anyway...
I'm doing a bit of recording at Swag studio's in Croydon soon...you may heave heard of Terry Francis, Dave Mothersole and Colin Dale...well they all record there...but I'm still looking to get my stuff released...my plan is to do all my midi and programming at home..then get it all into audio and take it into Swag and use VST 32 in there with an engineer cos I can't mix that well...

Recently I have been caning it a bit to be honest..last weekend I went to five parties in one weekend but only paid to get into one...it's just that I know a lot of people who run the nights from various parties, ex-girlfriends or whatever and the London underground house and techno scene is always kicking and friendly so there's always places to go...I'm not really a reclusive studio type..although you have to change to that mode if you wanna get something done..

And I do try and keep the bean intake down to minimum...but if your at a great party then they need to be botched...simple as that..

gimme you e-mail address mate.
all the best. Jez

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Message 22/41 Date: 03-Mar-01 @ 07:11 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

Jez

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by the way...Hope records is a great label. Do you like Jamie Anderson? He's from Bristol..

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Message 23/41 Date: 05-Mar-01 @ 07:41 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

r-tek

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its ok, I wasn`t offended in the slightest.I used to use an mpc as it happens for drums and sequencing but had to sell it - shame cos nothing does drums so damn tight imo and you concetate more on feeling the music rather than seeing like I have to now on cubase

I`m making umm .....kinda like hardstep dnb I guess, sometimes I get on the dancefloor one and other times I just disappear up my arse and try and go all avant-garde on the case. Anyway, dubby spacy stuff with tuff beats and a solid bottom end - none of this distorted 2-step shite thats doing its best to kill dnb. I use samples from my emu sampler, usually programmed in 32nd note triplets and then pushed and pulled (dunno why, but I never push the first snare, I`ll either drag it back a little or leave it as is; 2nd anything in the 2nd half of the bar seems fair game for anything really) slightly to make it flow a bit better and then I`ll either build up some fills and whatever from there or just resample that one bar, compress it and chop it into pieces for rearrangement.I`m just using my sampler for bass right now, does a good job actually. I have a prophecy here but it just does my head in to be honest.

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Message 24/41 Date: 06-Mar-01 @ 12:05 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

Jasper

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thing is it's tempting to buy into analogue synths and digital synths thinking that what you haven't got is the reason the stuff sounds shit.

I've bought all sorts of syths lately, and sold em on again to return to my trusted sampler.. all my good tracks are purely sample based.. for some reason the synths just don't want to play with me.

apart from my now dead bass station, a simple and dirty sound.

jez - bought 'sounds of the first season - sven vath' yet? - do so.. that's an order.

starts off mellow - and then rapes your eardrums.

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Message 25/41 Date: 06-Mar-01 @ 03:08 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

Jez

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he's playing at The End on saturday Jasper but I'm not going cos I'm djying at this party over in Woolwich...

I'll give it a listen and I did like that album he did years ago called 'The Hralequin' or something like that...

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Message 26/41 Date: 06-Mar-01 @ 03:49 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

johan

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geez.. i think this whole craze about what PRO:s do and don't do is just... too much! but then again, thats just what i think. i cannot speak for all.. but i prefer to have a certain warmth, and dirty feel to my sound.. not the perfectly compressed, polished, clean mix.. argl! in the end it is all about musical ideas.. yep, i'm speaking about chords, melody, rhythm, arrangements and so on.. and when the sound come a little bit rough, that is just good!

just my thoughts.. and i guess i will never be a proper PROFESSIONAL producer, but who cares.. i have my sound, and my technique.

regards,
johan

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Message 27/41 Date: 06-Mar-01 @ 10:02 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

ANALOGUE ANAL

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Hey Johan. I know I tend to go on too much about 'The Pros'. Just a bit anal I guess. But what I do notice alot in clubs is the difference between well produced tracks and the not so well produced ones. Producers who really know what their doing, are able to make their tracks thump out of the club system. You can really see the crowds vibe change if a slightly weaker produced record is played. I suppose i'm talking more about how the track plays through a club system rather than programming or music.
Hey Jez! I remember going to that pub in woolwich, funny place, right next to a police station. Ironic considering what goes on inside. I've had some top Wiggle, Whoop Whoop!, Heart and Soul nights in there. Dave Mothersole is one of my favorite DJ's. Proper cutting edge, underground house.
Hey R-tek are you in to Wookie's stuff?
Take care.

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Message 28/41 Date: 06-Mar-01 @ 11:00 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

Jez

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yeah Dave's playing on Saturday at this Cavort night over there...shit it's a small world. The last time I went over there was to a wiggle party about a year and a half ago and had a top night...yeah we noticed that..a police station right next to the cabbage patch kid's playden..I was wondering while totally boxed at Wiggle if half the crowd were coppers on their night off...lookin forward to this saturday..nice view over the thames as well...hope it's not too cold..

so have you got any stuff up to demonstrate your belief that analogue is better than digital then?

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Message 29/41 Date: 07-Mar-01 @ 02:01 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

ANALOGUE ALAN

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Hey Jez. I've only been using the internet two weeks, I'm a bit of a beginner I'm afraid. I haven't even got a e-mail address. How do you post music on the net? Is it free? Sorry for the boring question. Take Care.

PS. Can I listen to your tune with just a pair of minijack headphones out the back of the computer?

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Message 30/41 Date: 08-Mar-01 @ 01:27 AM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

Jez

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so your a beginner and you decide to shit on all things digital mate?

you've only just started using the internet? Where have you been the past few years? Stuck in that mad club over in Woolwich botching til your hearts content by the sounds of it...

oh listen to my tracks and I'll forgive you...haha

they are streamed in MP3 format...just get Winamp for free and then you can download tracks in mp3 format and listen..if your soundcard out is'nt connected to a set of speakers or an amp or whatever, then just plug your phones into the phone socket and you should get some sound...

all the best.

Jez

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Message 31/41 Date: 08-Mar-01 @ 01:29 AM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

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hey jez, isa that powerup sound from starwing?

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Message 32/41 Date: 08-Mar-01 @ 03:21 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

johan

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yeah, i see what you mean about the pros, and stuff. and you are definitely right about how a wellproduced/mastered tune can simply turn a club upside down. nothing wrong with that. maybe i should make symphonic stuff instead, and quit being pretentious about making melodic dancemusic, because (almost) everything that matters is (heavily compressed and eq:ed) sound, not melody.

cheers!

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Message 33/41 Date: 08-Mar-01 @ 03:21 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

Analogue Alan

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Hey Jez. Firstly I've only been using the beans on new years eve for the last five years. More of a smoker i'm afraid. Secondly, what's my late arrival on the net got to do with my digital/analogue argument. I own Logic Audio, a soundcard and alot of plug-ins. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but if I have a snare cominig out of my sampler, down a mackie channel and the same snare in an audio track coming of the computer then use my lexicon reverb on the sampler snare and a Tc reverb on the audio snare, there's just no contest, digital sounds wank. Hardware outboard just gives you a real sense of space in the mix. Lastly I'm still confused how I hear your tune. Do I need this winamp thing or can I just go to your link and press play. Sorry but I am an INTERNET beginner. Always been holed up in the studio I guess. Take Care.

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Message 34/41 Date: 08-Mar-01 @ 08:38 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

Jez

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k...which sound..dunno what your on about..it probably came from a 'white-noise' sound in my nova and then processed in soundforge or something...

analogue, I'm no net wizzkid either but you either have to have Real Audio installed or wniamp...my tracvks are'nt up for download now so you can only listen...so I think you need winamp..not sure though...k?

as far as your last post, depends on the quality of the plug-ins your using really...

you can't generalise these days..my Timeworks reverb plug-in sounds way better than my zoom or lexicon reverb units did when I owned them though its hard to explain why..they just sound smoother and more controllable..and what plugs are you using BTW?

..if your just using free ones then you've got no right to slam digital FX at all cos I will agree that a lot of the free plug-ins are pretty shite and lifeless, with no character...but the Waves ones, Timeworks, Canam ones I've got kick arse big time. You got or tried them?

I know what youre saying...a lot of outboard can really not just add the effect to a sound, but also add new dynamics and character than an 'equivalent' plug-in can..like a 'wholeness' to the sound or as you say:

'a real sense of space in the mix'

...depends on the unit...but you can't just say they are all wank cos thats just not true...

I'm having a few problems at the moment using pulgs as inserts on over 20 tracks of audio because my system is a bit old...so I'm gonna use a few more midi tracks..but lucky for me, I have an a3000 with 3 fx blocks, a nova with fx and a proteus 2k for effects...so sometimes I use those FX, and sometimes convert to audio and use plugs...it just depends how I feel at the time really...it certainly makes you more flexible and you can't argue with that..I've found that mostly I onlu use plugs on the drums, vocal samples and thats it... keys and other stuff is done on the outboard cos its quicker to set-up..and I don't mess with the bass to much..maybe a tiny bit of reverb, chours and compression...thats it...

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Message 35/41 Date: 08-Mar-01 @ 08:41 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

Jez

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sorry...shit spelling...and anyway, why do the posts on this page always get squashed up...makes em harder to read...watching the liverpool game now so I'm off..

Jez

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Message 36/41 Date: 08-Mar-01 @ 09:36 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

Jasper

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he's got a point, the a3000 has a lot more power to it's samples than my mates 600 quid audio card (dunno name).try putting HTML code directly in the text for paragraphs

I hope anyway.

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Message 37/41 Date: 08-Mar-01 @ 09:37 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

Jasper

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yeah put (p) when you want a paragraph... (replace the () with "<>"

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Message 38/41 Date: 09-Mar-01 @ 01:42 AM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

Jez

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oh

(p)

right

(p)

cheers

(p)

for

(p)

that

(p)

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Message 39/41 Date: 09-Mar-01 @ 01:42 AM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

Jez

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eh?

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Message 40/41 Date: 09-Mar-01 @ 01:58 AM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

Jez

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buy a smapler...and use pulg-ins..haha

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Message 41/41 Date: 09-Mar-01 @ 12:00 PM - RE: BEWARE OF THE DIGITAL DARKSIDE

Jasper

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too many little fellers you've had mate, by the sounds of things a punnet full ;)

like I said.. replace the ( ) with < > ... if I put em in directly it'll jusr paragraph the text rather then display the < >

ok?

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