Original Message 1/35                 Date: 28-Jan-01  @  10:35 PM   -   How would compression improve my track?

Jez

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if you've got the time and have'nt heard my track 'disconnected' yet then please give it a listen....the reason being....

I've been told the grooves are cool but that the drums need to be compressed..is it that important...can it be improved during the mastering or can only eq make the main difference to a final .wav...it just annoys me that I bought my Alesis 3630 after I wrote it...

this is'nt a shameless plug...I just need some advice...

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Message 2/35                 Date: 29-Jan-01  @  06:29 AM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

teemu

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Right, I listened to your track and the people who told you that the drums need to be compressed were absolutely right. They sound rather bland and boring and don't really drive the track along which is what drums are supposed to be doing.

And no, you can't improve that really during the mastering stage. You can use multiband compressing of course but it's no substitute for a balanced mix, it can't do miracles.

Now, just route your drums (or at least the kick and the snare) through the 3630, set the ratio an treshold somewhere in the middle and turn the attack up a few notches for a starting point. Fiddle around with the settings until it sounds good. That should do the trick, assuming the 3630 works like a compressor should.

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Message 3/35                 Date: 29-Jan-01  @  04:17 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Booz

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Just listened to the track (nice one by the way) and totaly agree with whats been said above but remember dont compress all the drums straightaway sometimes its to much, I usually begin with the snare and take it one step at a time.

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Message 4/35                 Date: 29-Jan-01  @  04:31 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jasper

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Jez - as well as the 3630 (I use mine for bass) - there is a compressor fx on the a3k.

It's good enough for hats etc, cos once you compress other stuff, you'll find that the hats are starting to sound weak.. I was told to compress em all together - which works for certain styles.

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Message 5/35                 Date: 29-Jan-01  @  04:53 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

pulaski

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hey jez...

i know what you're saying about compression...i often hear that the way you get drums to be fat and punchy is through compression. but i think it's also important to remember that compression basically only alters the dynamics of sounds and doesn't necessarily add beef to your sound, so that what's more important to getting a fat sound is the raw material you're starting with. in other words, you can't just take any kik drum sound, run it through a compressor, and expect it to sound punchy and fat. i borrowed a compressor once, and maybe i'm just clueless, but my fairly solid 909 kik definitely lost some of it's thud when i ran it through the compressor. basically what i'm saying is it seems that compression has the most pleasing effect on drums when the drum sounds you are starting with are really full, perhaps overpoweringly so and need some taming and squashing to sit in the mix right. i haven't experimented a lot in this realm but this is just how i've come to understand it. so what i'm saying is that if you're unhappy with your drum sounds i would work on the drum sounds (layering, etc?) before running for the compressor. just my meager .02

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Message 6/35                 Date: 30-Jan-01  @  12:21 AM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jez

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what so I should arrange my tune first..then stick the compresser down an auxliary pot..set the overall threshold etc....
then sort of mix 'through' it, equing at the same time as revolving the aux pot to get the best sound...or should I do my mix first then add some compression right at the end...the thing is don't wanna spend ages doing a mix without compression, then add it and it fucks up all the equing...so I'll have to do it again....I'll probably only use it on the kick, snare and hi's so as not to overdo as is the case with some people (Jasper - I usually do use the a3k compression on the hats...)..

I spent 3 hours today listening to tunes in Vinyl Junkies (in London - hey I have to put my doll money to someuse) and I noticed, particularly with hi-hats and clap type sounds in house and techno that, the volumes of each indivdual sound seems to be turned up full on the mixer and compression is used to give it a sharp kind of clipping downwards as it reaches the peak, which enhances the groove and sort of pushes it out of the way as opoosed to it just finishing...its hard to explain but I think you get what I mean...it gives life to grooves somehwat more...

I want that Peace Division type sound....I'll give it a go...thanks for the feedback...I still think the track is still worth getting mastered anyway..even though the drums are'nt compressed...

all the best

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Message 7/35                 Date: 30-Jan-01  @  12:26 AM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jez

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oh and my said as well that you have to compress it for a soundsystem (as opposed to it 'just sounding cool') or else it'll blow the thing up and you'll then end up getting beats from the bouncers...which we don't won't now do we?

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Message 8/35                 Date: 30-Jan-01  @  08:05 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

pulaski

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hell yeah...peace division's drums are probably the best i've heard in house music and it's good that they often showcase em by using such sparse arrangements around them so that you can really focus on the drum sounds. hell, they could make a track with just kik high hat snare and some shakers and have it sound interesting. so definitely a good thing to shoot for. i think i also know what you're saying about the hi hats. on records i often hear the hats sounding like one continuous sound, like they're blended or something so that you don't hear the individual hat sounds but rather a scissor-like or "rubbing sandpaper together" kind of sound. i wonder if this effect is achieved using compression. i hear it on almost every record so it must not be hard to get that sound.

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Message 9/35                 Date: 02-Feb-01  @  02:19 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jasper

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you mean that metalic kind of scrape rather than a tshh sound.. I got it by using really heavy compression.. like -48db/infinity ratio using a long decay closed 909 sample. I also layered a linn drum closed hat and a dmx closed hat - the dmx hat is far more metalic than the 909 btw. classic house drum machine.

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Message 10/35                 Date: 03-Feb-01  @  02:30 AM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jez

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whoa thats pretty complex Jasper...you obviously know how to program your drums...how do you do all this layering?
Do you key map each sound on the a3k to the same key within the same bank or somehow glue them all together using soundforge or a program like that...then smaple into the beast and then add compression...I always wonder how I hear these new sounding hats, but never know how they achieve that result...a lot of it is down to compression I reckon

cool thread!

I've been experimenting this week with my alesis..strapping it over the whole mix etc...but just using it as an auxiliary FX on drums is the best way to make the groove flow I reckon....I use a high attack: 150ms and totally turn down the release...I take it your always supposed to set the threshold and output to 0db..

have any of you heard the flip side to 'feel my drums' by Peace Division? Classic stuff...
I've been trying to track it down all week but it's sold out everywhere...I can't wait much longer I'm tellin you...

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Message 11/35                 Date: 03-Feb-01  @  02:33 AM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jez

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oh and Jasper...for the track I'm workin on now...the a3k effects are all bein used so I need to resort to the alesis for individual drum compression...I wish it had like 7 effects blocks...in an ideal world..

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Message 12/35                 Date: 03-Feb-01  @  03:21 AM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

philippe_gauvin

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I would need some advice to start using compression. Usually i put a negative threshold, a positive output a fair attack and a fast release. How you guys start with compression? Any particular settings ?

Thanks

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Message 13/35                 Date: 03-Feb-01  @  09:12 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

.

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mess with it ! the settings are bound to your source material: different kick, different settings. Don't be affraid to whack the living shit out of it. mind your speakers tho' ;)

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Message 14/35                 Date: 03-Feb-01  @  09:19 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

gb

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Jez, you might want to consider getting a 01v. Every channel gets it's own dynamics (compression for instance) processor and 4-band parametriq eq.

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Message 15/35                 Date: 04-Feb-01  @  05:32 AM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

k

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compression can also do something no other effect can do ... 'pumping' - (bar saturating tape which is also an evil effect - sample you bassline onto heavily overdriven tape, saturate it to hell, playback, sample.... ouch!!!!!!!!!.. you'll know the sound!)

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Message 16/35                 Date: 04-Feb-01  @  09:01 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Espoo2

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Check out the above link for a great tutorial on compressiona and what it does... in laymans terms.
I was actually re-reading it when I happened upon this thread....

Hope it helps... I'm still coming to terms with compression myself... and this has been the best source so far... check out the other links as well on the top of the page (of the link I posted) b/c theres lotsa good info there.

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Message 17/35                 Date: 04-Feb-01  @  10:35 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jez

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that was interesting espoo...nice one!

Believe me I'd love to get an O1V and I used to use an 03R at work for a while when I worked for The Discovery Channel...but I got no dollar now!

still, me and jasper are fortunate because we can use the compression in our a3000's on the drums anyway which is a major bonus and lessens the need for a flashey mixer with group sends etc...

I'm writing a kind of dark house track at the moment, but I want a crushed overall mix to make it sound more techno style, so I strapped the 3630 into the main inserts, kept the threshold and output on 0db so as not to overdrive the overall signal and a quicj release, moderate ratio and 50ms attack and surprisingly it does'nt box up the dynamics of the keys too much so it's got that added 'pumping' effect from the a3k's compresors (more extreme setttings mind you)
and a moderate overall compression from the alesis....
make's the whole thing sound more tight, and professional than all my last tracks...
the high hats kind of pop out at you more..then are sucked backed in line...keeps grooves alive...

also I noticed that when I crank up the volume on my amp, it does'nt sound more mushey the higher I go which is good for a fat soundsystem...

so now I'm glad I bought it...though I would'nt mind trying out a vitaliser...

still could'nt get that Peace Division tune today...still sold out everywhere...bastards!

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Message 18/35                 Date: 05-Feb-01  @  12:01 AM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

k

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there is also a COMPRESSOR page with lots of info in the FX-RACK section here at DT (check the top 'dancetech Selektor')

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Message 19/35                 Date: 05-Feb-01  @  01:45 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jez

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yeah I've checked it. It's pretty helpful actually. It at least sorted out for me what the difference between hard and soft knee was etc....

I like the settings chart as well which is quite useful.

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Message 20/35                 Date: 06-Feb-01  @  03:21 AM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

k

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what you want for stinky basslines is a valve compressor. :-) - droool! - another great one is to just play the bassline out via an aux send to your guitar amp, turn up the distortion or gain until the bassline hums, line out the sound or mic the cab.. mix it in sample it etc, killer effect on drum-loops too - it turns any clean but wicked grooving machine beat into a dirty grungy fucked up old drumloop with that overdrive they used to get on the old valve recordings back in the era those classic beats come from - remember it was alll valve & tape then....

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Message 21/35                 Date: 06-Feb-01  @  07:04 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jez

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yeah that's sounds like a cool idea mate. I'll give it a try when I'm writing something trip hoppy or dubby...if I can get my dad's mate to stop playing 'purple haze' on his old marshall stack for the evening...

is it a lot different from resampling at a lower frequency in your sampler...I do it in my a3k on house claps sometimes to like 11k then add some distortion from the FX blocks...though I guess it does'nt sound quite as authentic...

I like to keep my kicks and hi hats really smooth, then mash up the other drum grooves and bits in between...if it's all too smooth then it starts to sound cheesy and 'typical'...mix and match...bit like Peace Division drums...

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Message 22/35                 Date: 07-Feb-01  @  11:01 AM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jasper

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peace division eh? sounds good.

as for my drums I'm getting there but slowly these days.

K's tips are more reliable than mine btw - read up on em.

I play all my hats as separate sounds then let the compressor fix em and what k said - stick the kick through too, I like the effect better.. there still a long way from professional though, but then again maybe the 01v is the next move..

I'm not making mutch sense - in germany at the moment, up till 3 am last night drinking.. germans know how to have a good time.

see yah.

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Message 23/35                 Date: 08-Feb-01  @  01:55 AM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jez

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whoooaa..my mate's just got back from Berlin and he said that the techno raves out there last for days....fucking bunch of nutters over there..

'das banging ya'

funny in the midst of it all how you still clock onto dancetech even though your gear is a million miles away...

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Message 24/35                 Date: 08-Feb-01  @  04:18 AM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Espoo2

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Hurry, before Ze jermans come.

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Message 25/35                 Date: 08-Feb-01  @  05:42 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jasper

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I really miss the music/games when I aint at home.. this is my link with unreality.

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Message 26/35                 Date: 13-Feb-01  @  09:05 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jez

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yeah, staying in and writing too much music can mess with the mind at times I have to say...I do it in binges then take a long break and do things the total opposite....er like socialise

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Message 27/35                 Date: 14-Feb-01  @  04:23 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jasper

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I'm really getting into the 3630 for compressing the kick/rythm stuff together. since I realised that a lot of techno is seriously compressed I'm getting more believable results, it also tends to give the track a better feel too. like a horizen or something, eh? does that make sense?

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Message 28/35                 Date: 14-Feb-01  @  07:07 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jez

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cool...yeah thats a good way of putting it..'a horizon'..like a huge piece of sticky tape placed over the whole mix..check the 'timo mass' thread Jasper...

compression is essential with techno...I was playing on that new TC Electronic multi-band compressor today and it sounded so much better than the Alesis...I'll never have the cash to buy it though I'm really glad I bought the 3630..

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Message 29/35                 Date: 17-Feb-01  @  09:25 AM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Syprik

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I just stumbled upon this site and forums...damn...where have you guys been for the last months... there is nothing like an in depth discussion about compression for those deep housey kicks. I look forward to helping and getting help here.

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Message 30/35                 Date: 19-Feb-01  @  12:07 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jasper

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Hi Syprik - any compression tips are welcome  

hi hats / cymbals seem to cause the most problems here so any personal tips ?

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Message 31/35                 Date: 19-Feb-01  @  06:47 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jez

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I had a revelation today! I'm gonna sell all my outboard FX units and the Alesis 3630 I've just bought and get some kick arse monitors with the cash...

the reason being is that I've just got VST 32 and loads of the best plug-ins (for free...I've got my sources like most of you have I'm sure), maxed out my RAM memory to 128 megs and I'm finding that once I've converted all my midi to audio, I can compress each track within the VST mixer which is great for the drums and do other shit like limit, gate, and mess with the EQ's more, reverbs all at the touch of a button...I like the digital sound that VST eq puts on your drums....amazing...

mind you Jasper I'll still use the a3k compression b4 converting to audio for drums, and the proteus 2k FX...now my system will be totally tailor made....I do like the Alesis 3630, but I just don't use it...I just use the a3k comps for hits and then the mastering of the final .wav will be done in TR-Racks which I've just got hold of as well...whoooaaa, what a program...gotta love that interface...

Jasper...I saw a tune out on Force Inc records in Virgin today by someone called 'Jasper'...that ain't you is it?

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Message 32/35                 Date: 19-Feb-01  @  11:17 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

k

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Jez - you have GOT to try that with a multi-in realtime fast rack mate like the hoontech and have the outboard on the vst mixer before recording too !! -

also there is sidechain restricted compression... you can feed a frequency via an eq to the sidechain and let the comp compress certain frequencies MORE or less etc, pump certain frequencies, let other frequencies boom thru more etc. like de-essing but different frequencies.

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Message 33/35                 Date: 20-Feb-01  @  11:29 AM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jasper

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bloody coincidence this is (not the track, it aint mine), I'm building a new pc soon, thunderbird 900 with 256meg, and I'm was thinking about getting rid off my outboard too.

I think i'll keep the 3630 though, too usefull for controlling deep bass stuff.

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Message 34/35                 Date: 20-Feb-01  @  07:32 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jez

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haha..thought you'd made it big!

yeah..it's the way to go I reckon..keep the a3k though. I don't think a program like Gigasampler (which I've got as well) will ever replace it..I'm not about to go into softsynth territory yet cos I love my Nova and Proteus..and latency is prooving to be a complete bastard with my Isis soundcard at times..I always have to re-test inputs to keep it low..but I'll sort it soon and if it keeps playing up, I'll get a new card sooner or later..

I used my Alesis for bass mostly like you, but now I just record the bassline to audio and choose from the massive selection of plugs I've got instead...a lot easier and more fun choosing a plug-in...fuck it, I'll sell it and get some absolute zero 2's...

it helps more when working with other people as well that have VST 32...just save the arrangement and samples off to cd, and shoot off round there's, load up the cd and your off...

its just a lot more enjoyable writing tracks in VST with the mixer and plugs and everything...I've got every plug-in imaginable now along with the new ones that come with 32 by Steinberg which are fuckin great as well...

K - how the fuck d'you root the outboard to the VST..if it's midi you can't use FX right? Maybe I'm misunderstanding...sounds sweet!

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Message 35/35                 Date: 20-Feb-01  @  11:57 PM   -   RE: How would compression improve my track?

Jasper

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I'll never get rid of my sampler, did it once with the akai s2000, worst 8 months of my life was when I tried to get soundfonts to do anything interesting.

think 'm just ridding myself of the dat machine and the microwave2 but I'm keeping the midiverb4 and the aphex104 (bass sounds too bloody good through it), should get 600 for both and I'll buy an rm1x so I can get back into recording track live, so mutch more fun than staring at sequencers on a pc, and that bloody fan sound.. really gets my goat.

heh, just ordered the pc  , trouble is, I'm getting a geforce gts card too, can't see mutch music getting done in the near future.

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