Original Message 1/18                 Date: 08-Jan-01  @  12:02 AM   -   that Maasive timo groove

panashift

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i'm trying to get my drums and percussion to get that wet, funk groove present in tracks by people like timo maas, jark prongo, peace division and the like. but, my tracks are only slightly funky, without the big swing these tracks have. i've tried using the swing settings, setting my dbx comp to 'suck' the sound (fast release, slow attacks, 6:1+), but i can't do it, it sounds stompy, not deep and grooved. is it eq? setting the groove up in a matrix editor (i use logic)? compression? resonance? aaaaaaargh, it's really pissing me off! I have the usual set up (samp, mac, logic audio, comp, mackie desk)m so i don't think i'm missing stuff, just missing a trick somewhere.... go on, lend a hand!!

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Message 2/18                 Date: 08-Jan-01  @  08:12 AM   -   RE: that Maasive timo groove

teemu

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You want the Timo Maas sound? Get the Maasifier then, only 199£ + VAT.

Seriously... there is no magic trick that all the pros use to get that pro sound. It's about having years of experience, loads of talent and hopefully a studio that doesn't limit you. Especially with things like "groove" or "funk" or "swing" that can't really be measured.

Instead of looking for the magic trick you should look how the different sounds, rhythms and melodies interact. The groove is often about the way all the drums and the bass work together. A little bit of swing quantization will help but personally I prefer to just place the notes where I want them to be, instead of letting the computer move them about to create an artificial groove. Having a few channels worth of decent eq and compression will also help a lot, so that you have loads of control over the dynamics of the groove. 4 channels of compression should be enough, one for the kick, one for the snare, one for the hats and one for the bass. The real trick to compression (imho at least) is to eq the sounds correctly before and after the compression.

Hmm, that doesn't help much I suppose. I'm way too tired to do this.

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Message 3/18                 Date: 11-Jan-01  @  10:48 PM   -   RE: that Maasive timo groove

CK

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Try experiementing with the swing function a bit more. Heavy swing allows you to get a drum hit just before the beat. The production things are all great but won't help at all if it doesn't groove first. You could try recording a section of the track into VST/Logic and then using the EQ to narrow down on different parts of the groove and program a drum pattern along side it.

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Message 4/18                 Date: 18-Jan-01  @  12:58 PM   -   RE: that Maasive timo groove

jj

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What about groove templates?


I havn't really spent much time, but if you sample a few bars worth and then bring the wave into logic, you can create a groove template. This is a midy file that you can drop onto any track, it will include velo data as well as all that slight positional data that is apparently so essential (fuck if I get even an ounce of what really makes groove groove) to grooven. If you've the chance, please let us know what happens.

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Message 5/18                 Date: 19-Jan-01  @  10:13 PM   -   RE: that Maasive timo groove

m.ver

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How can you adjust the 'swing-faktor' in VST?? Is there anything like a swing-faktor in VST???

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Message 6/18                 Date: 20-Jan-01  @  08:09 PM   -   RE: that Maasive timo groove

ssovine

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I agree with teemu about finding your "timo" groove. Technical is one thing, but sound interaction is another. Lay your sounds out so all of them create another, at least use that to try to get your "stomp" out of the sound. Your sounds have to follow each other, so just experiment and fuck with your swing settings =)

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Message 7/18                 Date: 28-Jan-01  @  10:28 PM   -   RE: that Maasive timo groove

djsolace

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I've heard that if you're writing funky house type stuff...70% swing is normal to get the groove going well...try using a compressor like an FX unit..I've got an Alesis 3630 and I use it like teemu said..send the signal down to an auxiliary pot and use it on at least the bass drum, snare drum etc....then it'll bring out that in-and-out more pumping sound....like Peace Division...if you listen to that track they did called 'Feel My Drums'....especially the flip which is one of the best tech/house tunes I've ever heard....they have their own style of using compression...

It kind of annoys me how compression adds that little sparkle of professionalism to your tune because it takes you ages to figure it out...itmakes it suitable for an overall sound system...

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Message 8/18                 Date: 30-Jan-01  @  11:39 AM   -   RE: that Maasive timo groove

fink

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i had similar problems. what are the rules for swing settings. ie. what sounds do you apply them to?

if you have kick, snare, hats, claps, etc. what sounds receive the swing treatment. this is an essential question i've wondered for ages.

help resolve

cheers

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Message 9/18                 Date: 31-Jan-01  @  06:51 PM   -   RE: that Maasive timo groove

Jez

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mostly kicks and hats I think..but I'm still figuring it out myslef so I could'nt give you too much info

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Message 10/18                 Date: 31-Jan-01  @  10:37 PM   -   RE: that Maasive timo groove

pulaski

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regarding swing...i think everything is fair game. i think what's more important is where any particular sound falls within a beat rather than what voice that sound is. in sixteenths, basically anything that falls on the first and third division within each beat (if using standard 96 parts per quarter note, that would be for any notes that land on 24 or 72 within the beat). i used to think to just add swing to hats but i was messing with my ER1 and started using the swing function and then realized that that box adds swing to everything, even kiks, if you originally place them at those 24/96 and 72/96 positions. and it sounds damn good too! ER1 definitely has the funk wired into it :-)

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Message 11/18                 Date: 31-Jan-01  @  11:06 PM   -   RE: that Maasive timo groove

k

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http://ftp.bbc.co.uk/radio1/media/artists/timo_maas/ubik.ram

http://www.icrunch.com/stream.m3u?i=timomaas_der_schieber_radio_edit

http://www.icrunch.com/stream.m3u?i=timomaas_funkin_for_hope_in_ny_mix

like that?... it's deep, it's got latin crossovers, and much little touches and subtleties... the best advice is to checkout as much world beats as possible, nothing obscure, just regular world beats, especialy samba cos it's a mix of latin & african all in one, alot of the 'marching' feels are in it....

also checkout how the bass underpins the kik with some offbeat notes to make the pumping part but it compliments of course the rise in the hats & clack & other percussion sounds ('Der Schieber' (Rapid Eye Remix)) - and always there is this layered -da-d-da - da-d-ad triplet in the drums and synth riff's - a skip -

on 'Der Schieber' (Radio Edit), you got an absolute square up-hat & kik, boom-tish... over that is the offbeat with a shaker... d-d-da - d-d-da - d-d-da..... the synth riff follws this.. the velocity gives it the lilt on the offbeat with the hat is like a little rounded congo sound like a ringing wood-bucket doing the offbeat with the open hat... boom-da - boom-da - boom- didle-oom-da - :-) - etc...

there's about 6 layers of hats shakers & riddim over the hat-slice & kik (boom-tish) before the drums hit - at the breakdown/end, that sound like a pattern being triggered from a loop-start shows the offbeat phrase pattern revealed which is the last layer pushing the feel besides the synths - innit? - all i can say is if youi just study some basic african & s'american drum & music styles & carribean... there's all your patterns & feels then when you think in those patterns, you can hear them over anything, and flow with your beasts. - it's all about what you listen too... listen to the source materials and not try to hear this stuff happening hidden inside a dance track where it sounds mysterious...

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Message 12/18                 Date: 01-Feb-01  @  10:27 PM   -   RE: that Maasive timo groove

s

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well said.  

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Message 13/18                 Date: 13-Feb-01  @  10:22 PM   -   RE: that Maasive timo groove

phippsjess

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I asked Timo Maas this exact question at The Gallery, Turmills on Friday 28th January 2001, where my friend was DJing.
He was unwilling to go into alot of detail, but what he did say was he uses Logic Audio Platinum, only analogue gear, tons of compression and one of the best producers/engineers in Germany.
I also agree with other respondents to this question. It takes years of practice and experience. If you listen to Peace Divisions first track on Low Pressings, nearly three and a half years old, it is extremely basic (only 11 drum parts). Look where they are now!

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Message 14/18                 Date: 13-Feb-01  @  10:27 PM   -   RE: that Maasive timo groove

k

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doh fuck me, so he doesnt even produce his own tracks then?.... sad. - wonder what his 'top produers' would do with your midifiles?

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Message 15/18                 Date: 13-Feb-01  @  11:14 PM   -   RE: that Maasive timo groove

Jez

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great advice K!
I made a point of listening to the regular african drummers in Leicester Square today on my lunchbreak and it was so interesting how they built layer upon layer and crossed over poly-rhythms..though it was freestyle so I don't think they had a structure figured out...

anyway, I wish I had my mini disc on me to be honest to sample them....I was hypnotised...nothing better than the real thing.

it was funny cos I was chatting to Terry Francis at Fabric on Saturday night and he told me he always uses a multi-band compressor on his stuff and gates his snares..he said it was best to compress drums individually...it also says how to use compression in the mix in the new Computer Music mag which is worth checking out (for once!)...he'd never even heard of an Alesis 3630 so I was a bit gutted..

he said that at the end of the day his engineer does that sort of stuff for him but over the years he's picked it up...he says he'd never have figured it out himself..

I don't think we would have without a site like this to be honest!

he did say also that it is a complex combination of adjusting the correct velocities and LFO attacks and releases etc...along with the compression...if you just have a dry and linear drum pattern going (i.e Rebirth synced with Cubase) with a compressor over the whole mix you won't get such a pumping effect...

therefore it takes a lot of intricate programming and careful listening to get things pumping in that certain way...

I think your looking for more of a deep house groove than a hard techno one though Timo Maas sort of blends a lot of styles which is the current trend with progressive house being big and all that...I think theres a lot of difference between each genre of house and techno when it comes to compression..

buy something on Drop records and something by the Liberator DJ's..and a speed garage tune and the use of compression for each style is very different...

at the end of the day there is no 'rule'...like Terry said:

'as long as it sounds alright do it'...

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Message 16/18                 Date: 15-Feb-01  @  02:25 PM   -   RE: that Maasive timo groove

Jasper

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use your sounds reversed as well, not mutch, just enough to take the edge off the sound as it starts. like say you have a snare on the 2nd beat, you'd copy it, reverse it and place it about 1/16th behind the beat. have it cut off as the main sound plays and then move it closer to the beat to alter the feel. now do it with other sounds like hats etc and hopefully a static rythm should have a bit more feel to it without even going into swings etc, if you listen to great swing/dance beats you can hear a lot of this stuff going on really low in the mix.

of course it don't really start to groove until the sounds are working well together and the whole thing is compressed a bit.

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Message 17/18                 Date: 16-Feb-01  @  03:38 PM   -   RE: that Maasive timo groove

phippsjess

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Jez, I agree! But its best to compress individual drums then group them and compress them again. Don't forget to compress the whole mix.
Anyway there are hardly any DJs (apart from BUSHWACKA!) who produce their own tracks.
And another thing all this prog/tribal house is boring, its just drums, there's never any music in it.
Prime boring candidates are Steve Lawler (Yawn), Lee Burridge, Craig Richards and most of the old men Fabric DJ's.
To me the most exciting, cutting edge DJ's are Danny Howles, Sister Bliss, Timo Mass and Alison Marks. They actually blow the roof off and play records that have cutting edge music in them and make the girls dance. I won't see you at Home!

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Message 18/18                 Date: 16-Feb-01  @  06:28 PM   -   RE: that Maasive timo groove

Jez

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no you won't see me at Home cos I've never been there and never plan to cause it's a shit club full of champagne swigging media gimps listening to commercial 'trendy' crap!....my 18 year old brother goes there on a friday night...that place was just so overhyped that people just started cussing it...

'the old men fabric dj's'...haha..I spose they are really..

I think Craig Richards is a great DJ and largely plays some really experimental deep house and techno tunes that no-one will play...no cheese..he plays stuff really slow which is perfect at 3am when you're spaced out and comin down...I would'nt get into his stuff if he played at 11...

yeah deep house and tech/house has a different vibe to prog house...it's mostly more about a steady groove and attitude than building a set to a peak...

anyway mate..stop slaggin and give us some tips! DJ's only play records at the end of the day so who gives a fuck about em?

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