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Subject: Drum'N'Bass Area


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Original Message 1/89                 Date: 16-Oct-99  @  07:30 PM   -   Drum'N'Bass Area

wai

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Welcome to this new forum dedicated to the harder, phatter edge of dance music. Share your ideas, tips etc...Discuss about anything concerning the production of "Drum'n'Bass music. Hope this will be an active forum.



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Message 2/89                 Date: 17-Oct-99  @  12:58 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

k

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well, as a drum&bassie person, do you think it's true what someone said in another thread here?.. that D&B drum programming has gone down the tubes, and most of the track leaders now use samey rock-beats without much variation or interesting programming ?...



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Message 3/89                 Date: 17-Oct-99  @  01:55 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

wai

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Well you only have to listen to new releases by top artists such as Ed Rush/ Optical, Krush, Peshay, Photek etc... to notice all the different variations. Whoever said the're all the same obviously have no creative drive or whatever you call it.
I've only jst had my setup, and belive me trying to programm tunes that the top artists do is not easy at all. It's not just programming the tune, it's programming the actuall sound aswell. I know someone who releasesn records, but i wont say who. he gets a straight drum loop from Warefare, then a bass loop then just puts them together. thats what i don't want to do.
What bout you? You do Drum'n'bass?



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Message 4/89                 Date: 18-Oct-99  @  04:39 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

sox

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We're not saying that there aren't people out there making interesting Drum n'Bass, but what seems to be popular is this 2 step thing which is killing the creative end of Jungle. This is what the masses are listening to.
I work with all kinds of teens/young adults and all they listen to is 2 step. These are the people who buy the records and go to the d n'b events. Jungle at present is being ignored by the clubs/larger record co.'s in favour of garage/house and it's main popularity seems to be with the youth (or with the advertising people for some reason. Even they associate it with "youth" culture).

sox



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Message 5/89                 Date: 18-Oct-99  @  12:10 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

leifmon

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I own an E-MU E6400 Sampler. I am mostly an acoustic musician, but I have been messing around with some digital programming in my studio... My passion for digital programming comes from my love of Dancehall, from Jamaica. Can anyone tell me if my sampler is capable of good drum n' bass, I mean if I was to really sit down and work at it? Also, are there any suggestions for a good drum machine and sound module that would give me that sub bass, sine wave stuff that is typical in Dancehall music? Thanx, Leifwynn leifmon@worldnet.att.net



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Message 6/89                 Date: 18-Oct-99  @  06:22 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

wai

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Dunno about "Dancehall" music, but the classic b-line for Drum'N'Bass is a sampled 808 kick which is mapped across the whole keybord. same as a sine wave but there is a little click at the beginning.



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Message 7/89                 Date: 18-Oct-99  @  06:31 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

wai

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2 step.mid



The 2 step programm can get a little boring, so try it with some variation. Sorry my groove won't fit on the grid cus it's in 8th's i think, but i've included a midi file.
get a drum loop sample, slice it with kik c1, snare c#1, hats d1. And tell me what you think



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Message 8/89                 Date: 19-Oct-99  @  08:16 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

k

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thats fucking wierd, it works in EI but not Netscape - you know, im fucking fed up with netscape, those people have lost the plot - it used to piss on IE, but now those guys have lost it man



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Message 9/89                 Date: 19-Oct-99  @  08:32 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

k

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fixed



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Message 10/89                 Date: 21-Oct-99  @  03:53 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

tRiCKsTa

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The thing with Netscape is it actually follows the specification more accurately than IE. IE holds your hand and that's why it accepts things like non-urlencoded paths and filenames. Also watch out for the Mozilla Project it should be released on beta soon



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Message 11/89                 Date: 23-Oct-99  @  08:24 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

yoy85

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Jus` 2 backtrack a bit, the 2-step drum pattern was only so fukkin` popular among producers 4 so long cos the they were incapable of programming properly.



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Message 12/89                 Date: 26-Oct-99  @  08:37 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

chemical

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Yer, you can still pick out the basic 2-step in every dnb track around atm - here in aust. anyway. What got these 'tekstep' parties as they call him here: usual suspects this month or something. So where to from here?

gabba under some nice minor 7th chords?



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Message 13/89                 Date: 27-Oct-99  @  03:28 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

spectraphonix

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what about Photek?
Do you think he use breackbeats or it's a single instrument midi programming???
See Ya!!!



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Message 14/89                 Date: 27-Oct-99  @  03:51 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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Not sure what u mean. He definately programmes his beats if thats what you`re gettin at.



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Message 15/89                 Date: 27-Oct-99  @  04:20 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

wai

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Photek uses breaks, but cuts them, slices them etc. And they get heavely processed, dunno how exactly, but that's how he get's his trademark.



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Message 16/89                 Date: 27-Oct-99  @  05:49 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

sox

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I've got an interview with Photek done a couple of years ago (Future Music I think) and he talks about getting live players in to just play (on their own, not together) and he records it to hard disk. Then he chops it up and puts it together at a later time.



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Message 17/89                 Date: 27-Oct-99  @  06:23 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

atombom

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How do most of you guys program your beats? What sequencing software are you using? I use a piano-roll drum grid in the old Cubase type Atari sequencers. My PC's CPU is so tied up with programs that I have two Atari's to take care of the sequencing bits. Lots of screens. Less Windows.



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Message 18/89                 Date: 27-Oct-99  @  11:59 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

atombom

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How come whenever I start talkin the conversation dies out?



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Message 19/89                 Date: 28-Oct-99  @  02:12 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

sox

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I rarely progam. I play them. Just the advantages of being a drummer I guess 
Other than that though, everything else is done on Cubase VST (PC).



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Message 20/89                 Date: 28-Oct-99  @  07:47 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

spectraphonix

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I mean:if you listen to Photek recs,they are more than BD-SN-HH stuffs,that's why they sound different from the current D&b works.The secret ,i guess,is what he puts in between Bd and Sn primary rythm,the snare's rudiments.And rudiments,according to me,are not programmed ,but sampled.In an interview he said he uses to sample Elvin Jones,Coltrane's drummer,for example.But what does he sample and how he processes
sounds???that's(my!!!)question!!!



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Message 21/89                 Date: 28-Oct-99  @  11:37 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

atombom

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Sox, how easy is it to play at 170 to 190 bpm? Do you ever just play at say 165 then time compress? Seems awful fast to play with any precision. But hey I couldn't play the drums to save my life.

Since your a real drummer rather than exclusively programming, can you offer us any hints into getting our grooves to sound more human?



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Message 22/89                 Date: 28-Oct-99  @  01:26 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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When i said photek programmed his beats I meant he programmes the samples, if they weren`t breaks it wouldn`t b d+b would it?



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Message 23/89                 Date: 28-Oct-99  @  06:54 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

sox

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Yeah, I actually do play most of the stuff I do at 165/170bpm. I've been doing jungle for about 3/4 years now (and playing drums for 20) so I had the chops to start with. Most of the young drummers I come across can't do it though (and sound tight with it anyway). I think its down to a combination of experience and practice (and years of trying to play the jazz ride riff at an extremely fast tempo). Anything faster than 175 though and I lose the precision.

The stuff I do is based on having a live feel to it and isn't quantised to death. So when I play it for the hardcore junglists their first comment is usually "the drums sound weird. They're not quantised" I hope to post an MP3 soon to the site so people can check out our material.
Helpful Hints:
1)Try to play the stuff in half time (ie. 85 BPM) then double time it. Do this via MIDI so when you speed it up you don't change the pitch of the samples (assuming you're using a sampler and then you can control their pitch. I use an s950).
2)Use "Iterative quantise" and not "over quantise" or "note on quantise". This will gradually move your beats into place and not slot them in all at once.
3)Try and play the beats in as much as possible (don't forget you can slow the sequencer down to a tempo you can handle. Record it, put it at the tempo you want and then sample it)
4)Learn the Funk!! Cold Sweat by James Brown is the premier beat to mess around with for jungle. Learn it and then do a version of your own. Proper jungle kicks because it's got the funk, only sped up. (Listen to the original jungle stuff and slow it down by 50%=Funk/Hip Hop).
5) If you write the beats in, don't be afraid to kick the snares forward slightly (turn quantise off is best) to make the groove feel anticipated. Like the drummer is sitting on the beat rather than relaxing with it.
6) Probably "THE" most aspect of getting a live feel is the velocities of the beats. A drummer is constantly hitting things at different velocities (hard and soft).
Randomise your velocities or spend hours doing it by hand (fnarr fnarr). The results will be well worth it.
Experiment with the different accents and find your own voice.

And like Kilo says in another part of the site: "Learn to play a drum. Any drum." It will help you in so many ways as a musician. Whether you're a vocalist/guitarist/keyboardist or whatever. Nothing will improve your playing more.



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Message 24/89                 Date: 28-Oct-99  @  11:01 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

atombom

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Thanks sox. A great addition to this thread! I'll be waiting to hear your drum work.



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Message 25/89                 Date: 29-Oct-99  @  03:13 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

K

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he's right - cos whatever style of dance you make - in the end, you could take all the patterns, and change the sounds to drums... whatever the SOUNDS being used for the patterns, it's all just cross-riddims in the end... so learning drums, and studying different drum genre's from latin to Balearic, from Nyabinge to Gaelic whatever - they are all fuel for riddim informations... so you could take a standard classic Samba pattern, and change the drum sounds of say the leader-snare for a synth - you have a synth pattern... just add melody/scale - grab a reggea repeater pattern.... again... a new synth pattern.... check it out... join a hand-drum workshop...



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Message 26/89                 Date: 30-Oct-99  @  02:07 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

wai

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Another tip for programming breaks is to make good use of the eq. I don't mean to ed the whole break. Chop the beat up with Recycle etc.. Then assign the kick, snare to different outs on your sampler. i noticed you can boost the kick at about 80hz, which gives you a solid kick full of energy, unlike speeded up breaks which lose the bottom punch through transposition.
With the snare, you can add a bit of bottom, low mid etc..personal preferencve really, but i like my snare to sound wodden, if you know what i mean.
Can't wait to hear your demos Sox



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Message 27/89                 Date: 30-Oct-99  @  05:31 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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Yeah, It all depends on what kinda drum sound you`re into. I dont like EQin` 2 much bass into the kick `cos I find it clutters up the bottom end 2 much - I like 2 lw=eave it clear 4 the bass.



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Message 28/89                 Date: 30-Oct-99  @  07:51 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

atombom

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Yes I know what you mean. Usually when I start a new track I decide what sound(s) are going to be the driving force for the low end and how far they are going to stretch upward in frequency. It's difficult to use all those house shaking bass drums and gut wrenching basses all at the same time but if you are minimal, get your tunings and timing arranged correctly then it can be better than just backing off on the bass here and there. I've also found that dipping the EQ out around 500 to 600Hz on wide sounding bass sounds will really open things up for the rest of the track and actually make the bass sound punchier.



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Message 29/89                 Date: 30-Oct-99  @  07:58 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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Nice 4 that atombom, I`ll `ave 2 give it a try.



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Message 30/89                 Date: 31-Oct-99  @  01:15 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

chemical

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what samplers are you guys using atm?



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Message 31/89                 Date: 31-Oct-99  @  03:57 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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I`m using an Emu 6400 Ultra which is perfect 4 d+b - Its gotta powerfull synthesis engine which makes it very versatile, it has a fairly transparent sound and plenty of those lovely filters. When I was looking around 4 my sampler I tried a few out + the 1 I liked the most was the Roland S-760 - real warm sounding with nice filters but it seemed real user-unfriendly which scared me off. I looked at Akais as well including the S5000 wich is a fine machine, the topend maybe the brightest of all I tried, but overall I thought the Emu sounded nicer and had the more powerful editing options. If you`re looking 4 a sampler 2 get into d+b u could do a lot worse than the Emu ESI-32 which is dirt cheap right now, its a good sounding, flexible beast and in my opinion a better bet than the equivalent Akai.



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Message 32/89                 Date: 31-Oct-99  @  07:14 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

wai

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If the kik's boosted at 80hz, it dosn't interfer with the bass which for d+B is about 50-60hz. I used to have that problem when i used to eq the whole break, the kik getting cluttered up with the bass, and sending levels to heaven and beyond. While the rest of the break sounded weak.
I'm an Ultra user aswell.
My friend,s just bought an Akai CD3000xl, there's things you can do on that that the emu can't. but there's things on the Emu that the Akai can't.
It all comes down to what features you like and if your gonna use,em. Oh yea, the Akai is not as user friendly as the Emu.
I love my ultra, but i think i'm gonna get an Akai aswell, so i'll have the best of both worlds.



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Message 33/89                 Date: 31-Oct-99  @  08:17 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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Ah well, my desk doesn`t have hz markings on it, only -15 - +15. I jus` tweak it till it sounds right.



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Message 34/89                 Date: 31-Oct-99  @  09:08 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

atombom

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If theres any way in the world you can get a dedicated parametric or 32 band stereo EQ then just do it. It will turn your sound upside down and backwards. Go to Shareware and download a spectrum analyzer. See your bass drums interacting with your bass!

I wanted a real simple and friendly interface for sampling...Ahhh, ESI-4000 w128MB with ZIP drive...E4 next. Just waiting for my stock options to get more vested.

About the EQ: suck out the region between the fundamental bass and the kik drum to clear up minor problems.



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Message 35/89                 Date: 01-Nov-99  @  09:53 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

jwa

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Does anyone have any thoughts on the MPC2000XL? How good is it? I am wanting to produce old school jungle sounds... ie - tunes like hyper on experience on shadow or "want you know" by d'cruze on subbase no.25 (not really looking at all for the 2 step style that is used often now) Is the MPC2000XL good for this kind of thing?

Does anyone have any good recommendations for what equipment would be good ie - drum machine or sampler for producing a wide range of sounds (beats, jungle, etc)?

Someone has informed me that the MPC2000XL is easy to use and you can basically take the sounds from any drum machine.

Anyway your input is appreciated.

Thanks Cal.



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Message 36/89                 Date: 01-Nov-99  @  10:44 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

spockears

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You only need to ask us once man. You only need to ask us once man. You only need to ask us once man.

Drum machines offer portability and lots of tricks in one box. The sampling drum machines are very fast and intuitive also. If you want full flexability and to sound like whatever you want then look at some high end samplers like the rack mount EMU's and AKAI's. The MPC's are a bit lacking in the filter area.



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Message 37/89                 Date: 02-Nov-99  @  12:10 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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...and u dont really wanna bother with drum machines at all if you`re into the oldskool sound.....best off spendin` all ya dough on a sampler...



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Message 38/89                 Date: 02-Nov-99  @  07:49 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

spectraphonix

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I've listening D&B for 3 Years and now it is a year i'm trying to play it.The matter is that where I live (Pisa,Italy)there is almost no one I can speack with to have some tip or tricks.So guys....HELP me!!!!!
I have started cutting breaks from jazz drum solos ,snares sounds good,Kicks not so much and groove is missing.What is your way of working?
See ya!



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Message 39/89                 Date: 02-Nov-99  @  09:22 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

jwa

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Ok..... a sampler seems the go.... so say I get something like an s2000 or s6000..... where do i go from there to develope beats.... sorry the whole process at current is highly confusing for me....
thanks



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Message 40/89                 Date: 02-Nov-99  @  11:15 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

wai

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If your a beginner, you don't need to buy the S6000, the 50000 is just basically the same, but without the features that pros need.
Check out Emus also, far easier to use, better filters, better synth capabilities you programm it like a modular synth.
But there are little things that Akai do that Emus can't, and there are things Emu's do that Akai can't.
If you want Breakbeats, check out sample cd's which are the essential source for breaks, unless you have thousands of 70's rare groove/ hip hop/ soul/ jazz records to sample from.
If you send me an e mail, i'll link you to someone in the uk selling original cd's at knockdown prices



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Message 41/89                 Date: 03-Nov-99  @  05:47 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

spectraphonix

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Thank you Jwa and Wai,but I already have an Akai S3000XL(I had not enough money for s5000!!!)!!
What I wolud would like to know is the way you work to obtain a breackbeat,if you use groove with drum only or not ,drum solos and so on .
To begin what do you exactly mean with breackbeat,coz I guess there is a litlle misunderstoodment in terminology.
Thank you again,see you soon.



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Message 42/89                 Date: 03-Nov-99  @  06:05 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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A breakbeat is a rythym with irregular spaces between the main beats (think funk, hip hop, jungle). As opposed to the four to the floor beat of house or Techno ( u know, doof doof doof doof)



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Message 43/89                 Date: 03-Nov-99  @  06:07 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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Sorry...missed out a kik....



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Message 44/89                 Date: 03-Nov-99  @  06:52 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

spectraphonix

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Thanks R-Tek
Can you suggest me any BreackBeats records?I suppose yes!
And how do you works on them ?Do you use Recycle?
Excuse me ,but I'm hungry of information!!



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Message 45/89                 Date: 03-Nov-99  @  07:05 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

old miss pennywickle

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Seems like we got a good drum'n'bass crowd here so I'm gonna lay this on you guys/gals. I spend probably 50 percent of my composing time on the BASS. I do it like this sometimes: I sample a bunch of sub-bass riffs that sort of go along with my drum loops and fills. Then instead of exclusively relying on these for the whole track, I run one long midi track through the whole song running a modulated analog bass sound that doesn't get too quantized or repetitive. Then I kind of go back and forth between samples and live synth bass to give the bass some dimension. Tell me some of your techniques.



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Message 46/89                 Date: 04-Nov-99  @  11:02 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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Spectraphonix - pretty much all jungle is breakbeat. If u want 2 get your hands on the classic breakbeats, U could do a lot worse than buy the "Classic Beats n Breaks" 12" series which contain the original records where the classic breaks come from. I`ve got the 1st one and its got the SEMINAL Amen break on it and Mary Mary as well along with some other lesser originals. When u say BreakBeat records, u mean records 2 sample from or just good examples of records with breaks? Yeah, I use Recycle quite a bit 2 split up the rythym, map them across my keyboard and then rearrange them 4 edits. Thats probably the best way 2 start working on breaks but its also worth bearing in mind that u should wanna start programming yer breaks. ie. just take the kik, snare , perc. etc alone without any of the space in between (1st chop at the very beginnig of the hit and the 2nd at the end of the release segment of the hit)and arrange them in the drum edit screen of your sequencer 4 truly original beats (if that makes sense, not sure if I explained it well).



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Message 47/89                 Date: 04-Nov-99  @  12:15 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

k

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you can get some good stuff also simply by using an audio track and chopping up a break with the scissors tool, then re-arranging the bitz on the track with a low resolution like say 16th or 8th Snap...



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Message 48/89                 Date: 04-Nov-99  @  04:13 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

Spectraphonix

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Thank you very much R-Tek,everything is more clear to me now,very good tips!
See ya.
P.S:I mean records to sample from.



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Message 49/89                 Date: 04-Nov-99  @  07:42 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

wai

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One more tip, as mentioned by K is to load a break into an audio track in (i use) Cubase. With Cubase, you can play the break at any point, stop at anypoint. It's perfect and easy to programm different variations of breaks. Use it as ideas, then programm it into your sampler so you can make use of the sampler's filters etc....
Hey old miss penny wickle, how about sending me a midi file of your bass lines? I'll add my breaks to them, as i'm more of a drum programmer.



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Message 50/89                 Date: 04-Nov-99  @  08:26 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

old miss pennywickle

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Doing bass to no drums is like building a house from the top down. I'd love to shake up some floorboards for ya but I can't do it like that. MP3 me a short break and I'll send it back with a new suit on.

penny



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Message 51/89                 Date: 05-Nov-99  @  01:37 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

Casparproject

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Odd, theres only one bar there, and as far as I know, one of the main things that makes good D'n B is the fact that the drum patterns are usually 4-16 bars long. Ah well, I usually use splicey'd up samples, but here's bar one of a little step beat I used once, you can extrapolate the next 7 bars of the pattern yerself.

Peaceout



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Message 52/89                 Date: 05-Nov-99  @  01:38 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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Spectraphonix - if u jus` want records 2 sample yer breaks off then go 2 a hip hop shop if u have 1 round your way, failing that find a shop online (I think Mr Bongo have a website, dont know the address though) and buy some of the classic beats n breaks albums which r very usefull. Failing that, listen 2 the D+B u already have carefully, u should find that u can pick out at least a clean kik or snare 4 sampling. I spys "Vapour" that came out on Underfires "Blazing" album had a lovely stepping break at the beginning u can sample. And the (dont laugh) Aphrodite album has plenty of crisp hits u can pick out if u listen carefully. Jus` use yer ears and u`ll probably find u have plenty of sample material already.



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Message 53/89                 Date: 05-Nov-99  @  05:53 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

fresh

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Is that legal? Seems like cheating if you get your drum n bass sounds off of drum n bass albums. I know I'd be pissed off if you did it to me. Oh well, that's the nature of the game I guess...



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Message 54/89                 Date: 05-Nov-99  @  07:13 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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.....hardly ANY d+b producers actually get their beats from a a session drummer in their studio. They lift them from all over the shop. As mentioned above all the classic breaks have been used in hip hop b4 and THEY were themselves lifted from funk, rare groove etc. The whole point of the sampler, to me, is empowerment. U no longer need £10000`s worth of gear, u dont need a band (who, lets face it, may not b able 2 play all that well themselves) or session musicians, u dont need any formal training....I could go on all day. Theres pretty much an unspoken agreement in D+B and other genres that people r free 2 sample everyone elses material (within limits, of course)without fear of litigation (I mean, how many times was the "Shadowboxing" break used or that clattery jazz break in "Everywhere I go rmx"?). Where do u get your samples from then?



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Message 55/89                 Date: 05-Nov-99  @  11:16 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

fresh

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I see your points certainly about the validity of sampling other peoples work. Sure, I do the same. However, I try as best as I can to sample the most obscure sources that I can. Film noir, exercise LP's from the 50's, political documentaries, live voice-overs, horror films, telephone conversations, dance instruction tapes, aircraft, animals, household noises, my mouth, etc. Yes I also sample more widely recognized sources such as purchased sampling CD's, and old Vinyl. I believe in sampling the world and bringing it to drum n bass breaks, or whatever your beat. But....I just prefer to grab unfound or forgotten things and then twist the hell out of them so no one could ever say hey that's "*". Just my way of doing it. If someone is going to sample me then they better well turn it inside out and backwards so I can't recognize it so they aren't just echoing what I just did. So this is the real point that I am trying to make: Grab another guys drum n bass kick for my own drum n bass groove? I'd feel like I just turned a painting upside down and called it mine. Again, it's just the way I do things. I get my rocks off on being clever.


P.S.-I'm not trying to patronize or brown-nose you or anything but I've run into you in threads all over the place and you know your shit. Post a groove some time. 



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Message 56/89                 Date: 06-Nov-99  @  05:36 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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Ok, I follow what yer gettin` at now. I thought u were some sort of sampling fascist or something, sorry. 2 b fair though, Spectraphonix wanted 2 know how 2 get into doin` his breaks and the easiest way is by lifting existing breaks and playing around with them. I`m only a novice meself and I lift most of my hits from jungle records, but I dont leave it at that, I merge 3-4 kiks 2 get a new one and then strip it down with the filters etc. I dont ever use a hit taken off vinyl as is, I`ll always try an` make it my own by playin` around with it. Course, when I get a better idea of what I`m doin`, I`m hoping 2 move on from that but 4 now, it suits me jus` fine.



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Message 57/89                 Date: 07-Nov-99  @  05:05 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

casparproject

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I usually use sample CD's, at least with these you have permission to use the samples. Best way to do it I find is to take a 4 bar loop and break it into 8 parts, then find your individual drum sounds as well. then assign each one to a different key on your controller, and seq. the pattern.

Peaceout



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Message 58/89                 Date: 07-Nov-99  @  07:14 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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2 b honest, I have no reservations about using someone elses beats `cos I always tailor them 2 give 2 get the sonic qualities I`m after. I`ve got sample Cds but I prefer not 2 use them - I dont wanna use the same beats as everyone else. I mean, what I`m doing may not b strictly legal, but its a whole lot more creative than say house where people r STILL using the 909 2 program the same old tired patterns. After all, where did the d+b producers get their beats from in the 1st place? U think they paid 4 `em? I got a lot of respect 4 what Sox is doin`, wish I could do it, but it don`t make what I`m doin` any less valid. U shouldn`t put any sort of restrictions on where u source your material.



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Message 59/89                 Date: 07-Nov-99  @  09:34 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

fresh

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What your doing is completely legal so far. However once you start getting your first commercial releases...

One thing that I do to come up with good sounds is to sample other peoples drum n bass breaks that I really like and put em on my trigger board. Then I just use them as reference in order to get similar qualities out of my own samples on adjacent keys. I keep them in my sampler but never use em for my own work. Try it sometime. You'd be suprised how much more you can get out of your own stuff if you can A/B to commercial releases that easily.

So what does Sox do that you cant? (perhaps I missed something there).



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Message 60/89                 Date: 07-Nov-99  @  05:54 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

sox

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I think R-tek was referring to the fact that I play all
my grooves and don't program them in which gives my stuff a completely original feel.

'Nuff respect to R-tek. He's hit the nail right on the head "it don`t make what I`m doin` any less valid". There is no such thing as good or bad music, only different. (That comment will probably start off a whole new thread now 



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Message 61/89                 Date: 07-Nov-99  @  06:34 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

fresh

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Oh yeah, this thread is so long I couldn't remember that you are the traditional (of sorts) drummer. I'd maybe give up all my sequencing equipment to have the ability to play the drums really well. I just don't have the rythm. There's this guy I work with that can beat the hell out of anything and sound awesome. He doesn't even like to but I just beg him and he rolls his eyes and does it. It's like I give him a couple of metal cans and off he goes bft-t-t-t-bft-t-b-t-t-bfft-t-bf. It must be in his genetic build up cuz he doesn't play or have the desire to.



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Message 62/89                 Date: 07-Nov-99  @  07:17 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

sox

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Yeah, I've always been envious of people who have the rhythm naturally. I had to work at it when I started out, approx 6hrs per day for the first 3 years, (lucky I had pretty cool parents who put up with me!).

You should sample your friend(or maybe you do already) and use the grooves. It would be quite interesting to hear his pots and pans in the music. You'd probably be surprised how many #1 hits have snare drums that are actually cardboard boxes.



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Message 63/89                 Date: 07-Nov-99  @  09:06 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

wai

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Okay Sox, as your a live drummer, and i've been wanting to know this for ages. How come the drums nowadays don't sound like the breaks D+B music uses. Like the Amen, what drumkit did they use for that? And there's Funky drummer, lynn etc...etc.... do you think they go through valve amps, eq, compressors etc...?
Would you be able to do breaks like that? It seems all the drum groove cd's that are coming out, they're too clean if you know what i mean, they don't sound anywhere like the Amens, Funky Drummer's etcv..



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Message 64/89                 Date: 08-Nov-99  @  11:48 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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....I wouldn`t b surprised if the Winstons were jus` recording straight into a 4-track when they did "Amen Brother".......such was the equipment available in the W.Indies at the time.......virtually all Lee "Scratch" Perry ever used 4 a long time.....



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Message 65/89                 Date: 08-Nov-99  @  05:42 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

sox

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Wai: Yeah, lo fi was where it was at for sure. There is a book which is full of interviews with producers from the 60's and 70's(unfortunately I haven't got my notes with me so I haven't got the name of it handy) which would probably answer most of the questions you've asked. I can't really comment on individual sessions but I know the general drift of how most of them were recorded. Most of them were recorded in mono, with maybe 4 or 5 mics on the kit (remember they only had 4 tracks to play with and a lot smaller mixing desks then we have today)and they weren't "drum" mics like we use today. They were recorded to tape and when people sample them they tend to sample off of vinyl which adds crackle and pop to the sound. As far as the drum kits go themselves, they were dampened to fuck. Gaffer tape and tissue on the heads, pillows in the bass drums, the drummers wallet on the snare drum to get rid of overtones. It has only been recently (ie 10-15 years) that drums have been allowed to be "live" when recorded (since the 50's anyway). The quality of manufacturing and the fact that drummers are a bit more clued up on tuning them has helped this change. One of the best drum sounds I ever put on tape for someone sounded like absolute shit in the studio. Completely dead, and I mean completely. But the sound the engineer had on tape was phenomonal. So phat I could barely squeeze into the control booth  I wish I had a copy of the session. Compression definitely played a big part of the overall sound though.

I think the best way to recreate this (short of having V-Drums) is to go and use very old equipment to record with. CD's and the like are cleaned up and eq'ed up for maximum sonic quality. But like you say, it loses something in the translation.

What you're asking is an interesting question which I think I'm going to try. Can I recreate the feeling of the 60's/70's loops via my MIDI kit? I can (and do) recreate that feel/sound on my live kit and I think I can do it via the MIDI kit (Yamaha DTX v.2) but it's something I've never really thought about. Kilo and I will be getting together soon so hopefully we'll be able to get that kind of sound that everyone is searching for.

You should also check a book called "The Big Beat" by Max Weinberg (Bruce Springsteens drummer) in which he interviews all of his drumming heroes from the 60's and 70's. They talk a lot about the recording techniques used at the time. I think it's out of print but you should still be able to find a copy. I know you can still find it on Tottenham Ct. Rd (Foyles?). I also think he did a sequel "The Big Beat 2". Although I've never seen a copy I'd like to get one (the sequel that is, I've got the other one)



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Message 66/89                 Date: 08-Nov-99  @  08:19 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

wai

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Wow Sox, very interseting. You said that you can programm drums with live feel/sound? How can you do that? What sound source? Have you got any MIDI files for me to mooch at?
It's great to hear from a live drummer.
One more thing, have you heard a track called Second Movement by Krust? Drums on that are real DOPE!!
Shit knows how he did it, i mean the sequencing's easy to do, but it's how the drums actually sound.
Especially the snare, like nothing i've heard b4, not on a D+B tune anyway.



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Message 67/89                 Date: 08-Nov-99  @  09:04 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

fresh

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Wai, what CD is that Krust track off of? I love his stuff.



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Message 68/89                 Date: 09-Nov-99  @  10:48 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

nobody

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tip? sometimes i sample through a crap cable...an old rca cable, from the 70's or early 80's...cut off one end's connectors & attach 1/4" connectors in place...if it sounds a little too clear you can always take a few strands of wire off to make it less...well, it helps with my drum sounds sometimes...maybe someone else can benefit too>



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Message 69/89                 Date: 09-Nov-99  @  12:34 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

esquivel

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I really have to question the unique benefit of that. All you are really doing by using a crap cable is attenuating the signal. (Particularly high frequencies). Easily done with a EQ trimmer or LPF.



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Message 70/89                 Date: 09-Nov-99  @  02:35 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

sox

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Wai: I don't programme them (well, not very often anyway), I play them. I've got a MIDI kit (Yamaha DTX v.2) with about 1100 sounds in it and they're all editable. Sometimes I trigger off my S950 as well to get the sample sounds thing going.
When I'm getting old school style loops I normally use an acoustic kit. I normally use either PZM's or SM58's for mic'ing it up. One or two mic's only and then add crackle and pop from a couple of vinyl samples. For that truly gritty feeling I'll play onto tape and then transfer it into the PC.
I haven't heard the Krust track but my DJ mate (Filthy Rich, he does the www.pirate-radio.co.uk on Thurs 9pm till 10, check it) is going to bring it in for me. Maybe once I've heard it I can explain how he did it.



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Message 71/89                 Date: 09-Nov-99  @  08:05 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

wai

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Anyone that wants to find that Krust's tune, it's called Second Movement forthcoming on his album, can't wait, mate.
Looking forward for your comments Sox.



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Message 72/89                 Date: 10-Nov-99  @  12:17 PM   -   Da BEATS!!!

wheresbob

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Hey folks....first of all...I'm glad I tripped into this BBS...lots of cool tips being thrown around in here   I think we have a very specific group of people here...people who are in LOVE with the BEATS. I've been kicking out amatuer stuff for a while. Fell in love with DnB....developing my own DnB style right now.

Here are my thoughts: Some times using loops give's you a sound that you can't get any other way....but there's a lot to be said for building your own drum tracks...I use sequencers from time to time to trigger samples. This let's you create beats exactly the way you want em...but it's hard to keep that open "feel".

Lately I got into creating my own drum tracks by hand using samples. It is the most time consuming...but it let's you have the best of both worlds. On my last track I sampled some "war sounds". Mostly cannons and gun shots...added effects to the drum sounds.

Then I built the entire drum track using these samples...the final result was just what I was looking for...not exactly a DnB track...but the track (Disorder) has great SOUNDING drums and a wild beat.

I created a new band name called "Master Please" for these tracks using the custom drums....if yer curious you can check out the Disorder track here:

http://download02.amp3.net/songs/u04/236/4986/Master_Please-Disorder.mp3

I am just finishing a track called DRUGS...built TWO crazy drum tracks for this song...they are both playing at the same time in stereo....this created a wild effect....I'll post the url to that song when I get it uploaded  

Hopefully I'll have a true DnB track ready by that time too. Thanx to all who have been posting in here about how THEY go about creating their stuff....learning some new tricks  

Laterz.......Overdrive



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Message 73/89                 Date: 11-Nov-99  @  12:09 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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The Krust album is already out, by the way....



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Message 74/89                 Date: 11-Nov-99  @  04:50 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

k

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you can get some awesome drum sound samples by sampling the sound of whacking a big (and assorted sizes) cardboard box with a stick, maybe in a garage or bathroom for some ambient reverb - great hard sounds,



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Message 75/89                 Date: 11-Nov-99  @  05:58 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

fresh

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Big Plexiglass windows hit with basketballs seem to resonate like 808/909 kicks. Real deep and punchy. Try punching all the ones that you see for now on until you find a nice one.



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Message 76/89                 Date: 11-Nov-99  @  07:45 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

wai

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What you could do also is to have a mate with a mic in front of him, punch him in the face with your bare knucles, you'll get a solid kik out of that and use his scream as a hi pitched snare. Don't forget to compress also as the scream would be much louder than the punch:@) Just a thought.....



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Message 77/89                 Date: 12-Nov-99  @  11:55 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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.....an` kick him in the nads 4 trebly hi-hat sounds........



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Message 78/89                 Date: 07-Dec-99  @  11:30 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

Joj the dog faced boy

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I would just like to thank you each and every one of you for the great stuff i have learnt.

I love breabeat and drumandbass and jungle and every genre and sub genre that comes with a half speed big bass line and frenetic beats

My problem is i never knew how to do it .

Thanks some one in the thread for the idea of cutting a 4 bar rythmn in eights and going nuts on your sequencer.

and thanks to the person somewhere on this page who figured out "funky drummer" so that i can play it in my little ol hammerhead.

Just a little something i was doing in order to get good break beats

take a loop...
any loop....
make sure it starts on a kick drum...
call it loop 1
now take that same loop copy it and paste it at the end
cut it just right so that the 4 bar loop starts on a snare and finishes on that same snare
call that loop 2
any other interesting hits in the loop
follow above proceddure to creat loops that start and finish on that hit.

now.
load into your sequncer..
every time you want a kick...loop 1
every time you want a snare ...loop 2
etc..

you can make some very nice rithmns when you use a simple 4/4 beat but eliminate the 2 and 4 kick and use the snare loop at 2 and 4

call it destructo-broken-beaten-houser-of-doom?

Any way my knowledge has increased ten fold because of you guys ... thanks a large bunch



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Message 79/89                 Date: 08-Dec-99  @  08:51 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

wai

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Much appreciated, Joi. We drum 'n' bassists are true purveyors or whatever you call it, of dance music. And i'm not speaking for myself. Glad you have not gone into the much commercialized House music



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Message 80/89                 Date: 12-Dec-99  @  11:20 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

ghjgj

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ghjghj



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Message 81/89                 Date: 15-Dec-99  @  12:50 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

lx008

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Breakbeat Era muthafuckaz!



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Message 82/89                 Date: 15-Dec-99  @  11:50 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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nice one.




























Go have a lie down.



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Message 83/89                 Date: 15-Dec-99  @  06:15 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

sox

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And don't forget your medication!



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Message 84/89                 Date: 19-Dec-99  @  08:17 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

Lyrebird

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Theres more to DnB than just the breaks you know unless you're into generic dancefloor fodder, listen to all the othere sounds that are used, the arrangements etc.

And another thing I glad that I'm getting over my how do I make that sound, b-line, beat sound like dnb producer X. now I'm starting to sound a bit more like me. The big guys and girls aren't there to be emulated they are there to inspire, don't forget that the one constant in dnb as in most electronic music is the need to experiment, break new ground and evolve.

having said all that does anyone know how they get that washy, cymbal sound (used a lot on the amen break)



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Message 85/89                 Date: 20-Dec-99  @  12:12 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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Yeah, we know theres more 2 it than breaks, but this is the "drum grooves" forum right?



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Message 86/89                 Date: 26-Dec-99  @  02:08 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

ellipsis

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Whaadya guys think of this grove?



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Message 87/89                 Date: 10-Jan-00  @  09:21 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

eddie

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thanx guys, i ve learned a shitload of stuff from you guys then the so called "dj" fucks in seattle...( i wanna kick the ones who call fading in the next song "dj" ing. "



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Message 88/89                 Date: 11-Feb-01  @  12:59 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

Vandewalle_Ilja

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does anybody know where, apart from this wonderful d&b forum, you find all this gimmicks( no offense but my english sucks a little bit)like the 808-bas mapping over the keyboard and the cutting up breaks stuff, cause I've been trying to make d&b for some time now and since I heard of these tricks a week ago, I'm having some kind of creative revolution in my head ... most of all, how do you make those organic heavy distorted bassriff-sounds you hear alot in the real hard dancefloor tunes (like in many bad company mixtapes)



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Message 89/89                 Date: 11-Feb-01  @  02:59 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

nasir

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shite, how old is this forum?
thought it was long gone



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