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Subject: Drum'N'Bass Area


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Original Message                 Date: 16-Oct-99  @  07:30 PM   -   Drum'N'Bass Area

wai

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Welcome to this new forum dedicated to the harder, phatter edge of dance music. Share your ideas, tips etc...Discuss about anything concerning the production of "Drum'n'Bass music. Hope this will be an active forum.



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Message 61/89                 Date: 07-Nov-99  @  06:34 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

fresh

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Oh yeah, this thread is so long I couldn't remember that you are the traditional (of sorts) drummer. I'd maybe give up all my sequencing equipment to have the ability to play the drums really well. I just don't have the rythm. There's this guy I work with that can beat the hell out of anything and sound awesome. He doesn't even like to but I just beg him and he rolls his eyes and does it. It's like I give him a couple of metal cans and off he goes bft-t-t-t-bft-t-b-t-t-bfft-t-bf. It must be in his genetic build up cuz he doesn't play or have the desire to.



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Message 62/89                 Date: 07-Nov-99  @  07:17 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

sox

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Yeah, I've always been envious of people who have the rhythm naturally. I had to work at it when I started out, approx 6hrs per day for the first 3 years, (lucky I had pretty cool parents who put up with me!).

You should sample your friend(or maybe you do already) and use the grooves. It would be quite interesting to hear his pots and pans in the music. You'd probably be surprised how many #1 hits have snare drums that are actually cardboard boxes.



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Message 63/89                 Date: 07-Nov-99  @  09:06 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

wai

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Okay Sox, as your a live drummer, and i've been wanting to know this for ages. How come the drums nowadays don't sound like the breaks D+B music uses. Like the Amen, what drumkit did they use for that? And there's Funky drummer, lynn etc...etc.... do you think they go through valve amps, eq, compressors etc...?
Would you be able to do breaks like that? It seems all the drum groove cd's that are coming out, they're too clean if you know what i mean, they don't sound anywhere like the Amens, Funky Drummer's etcv..



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Message 64/89                 Date: 08-Nov-99  @  11:48 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

R-Tek

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....I wouldn`t b surprised if the Winstons were jus` recording straight into a 4-track when they did "Amen Brother".......such was the equipment available in the W.Indies at the time.......virtually all Lee "Scratch" Perry ever used 4 a long time.....



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Message 65/89                 Date: 08-Nov-99  @  05:42 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

sox

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Wai: Yeah, lo fi was where it was at for sure. There is a book which is full of interviews with producers from the 60's and 70's(unfortunately I haven't got my notes with me so I haven't got the name of it handy) which would probably answer most of the questions you've asked. I can't really comment on individual sessions but I know the general drift of how most of them were recorded. Most of them were recorded in mono, with maybe 4 or 5 mics on the kit (remember they only had 4 tracks to play with and a lot smaller mixing desks then we have today)and they weren't "drum" mics like we use today. They were recorded to tape and when people sample them they tend to sample off of vinyl which adds crackle and pop to the sound. As far as the drum kits go themselves, they were dampened to fuck. Gaffer tape and tissue on the heads, pillows in the bass drums, the drummers wallet on the snare drum to get rid of overtones. It has only been recently (ie 10-15 years) that drums have been allowed to be "live" when recorded (since the 50's anyway). The quality of manufacturing and the fact that drummers are a bit more clued up on tuning them has helped this change. One of the best drum sounds I ever put on tape for someone sounded like absolute shit in the studio. Completely dead, and I mean completely. But the sound the engineer had on tape was phenomonal. So phat I could barely squeeze into the control booth  I wish I had a copy of the session. Compression definitely played a big part of the overall sound though.

I think the best way to recreate this (short of having V-Drums) is to go and use very old equipment to record with. CD's and the like are cleaned up and eq'ed up for maximum sonic quality. But like you say, it loses something in the translation.

What you're asking is an interesting question which I think I'm going to try. Can I recreate the feeling of the 60's/70's loops via my MIDI kit? I can (and do) recreate that feel/sound on my live kit and I think I can do it via the MIDI kit (Yamaha DTX v.2) but it's something I've never really thought about. Kilo and I will be getting together soon so hopefully we'll be able to get that kind of sound that everyone is searching for.

You should also check a book called "The Big Beat" by Max Weinberg (Bruce Springsteens drummer) in which he interviews all of his drumming heroes from the 60's and 70's. They talk a lot about the recording techniques used at the time. I think it's out of print but you should still be able to find a copy. I know you can still find it on Tottenham Ct. Rd (Foyles?). I also think he did a sequel "The Big Beat 2". Although I've never seen a copy I'd like to get one (the sequel that is, I've got the other one)



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Message 66/89                 Date: 08-Nov-99  @  08:19 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

wai

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Wow Sox, very interseting. You said that you can programm drums with live feel/sound? How can you do that? What sound source? Have you got any MIDI files for me to mooch at?
It's great to hear from a live drummer.
One more thing, have you heard a track called Second Movement by Krust? Drums on that are real DOPE!!
Shit knows how he did it, i mean the sequencing's easy to do, but it's how the drums actually sound.
Especially the snare, like nothing i've heard b4, not on a D+B tune anyway.



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Message 67/89                 Date: 08-Nov-99  @  09:04 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

fresh

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Wai, what CD is that Krust track off of? I love his stuff.



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Message 68/89                 Date: 09-Nov-99  @  10:48 AM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

nobody

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tip? sometimes i sample through a crap cable...an old rca cable, from the 70's or early 80's...cut off one end's connectors & attach 1/4" connectors in place...if it sounds a little too clear you can always take a few strands of wire off to make it less...well, it helps with my drum sounds sometimes...maybe someone else can benefit too>



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Message 69/89                 Date: 09-Nov-99  @  12:34 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

esquivel

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I really have to question the unique benefit of that. All you are really doing by using a crap cable is attenuating the signal. (Particularly high frequencies). Easily done with a EQ trimmer or LPF.



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Message 70/89                 Date: 09-Nov-99  @  02:35 PM   -   RE: Drum'N'Bass Area

sox

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Wai: I don't programme them (well, not very often anyway), I play them. I've got a MIDI kit (Yamaha DTX v.2) with about 1100 sounds in it and they're all editable. Sometimes I trigger off my S950 as well to get the sample sounds thing going.
When I'm getting old school style loops I normally use an acoustic kit. I normally use either PZM's or SM58's for mic'ing it up. One or two mic's only and then add crackle and pop from a couple of vinyl samples. For that truly gritty feeling I'll play onto tape and then transfer it into the PC.
I haven't heard the Krust track but my DJ mate (Filthy Rich, he does the www.pirate-radio.co.uk on Thurs 9pm till 10, check it) is going to bring it in for me. Maybe once I've heard it I can explain how he did it.



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