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Subject: digital & analogue combi gain structure


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Original Message 1/21                 Date: 10-Oct-05  @  12:34 PM   -   digital & analogue combi gain structure

Dominic

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I'm having major issues with deciding on -10 db and +4db inputs and outputs in my studio. I run 24 channels of delta 410 soundcard outputs down 24 channels on my Mackie 32:8:8 analogue board. I have made sure that my control panel card outputs are at -10db consumer and that 0db on my instrument channel in Logic 5.5 on the PC exactly matches 0db on the repective Mackie desk channel. I try to have my mixes peaking at +3db on the Mackie - is that about right?

I like to sub group my drums through one of my focusrite compounders but am having problems deciding on whether to use the +4db inputs or -10db inputs. When I use the -10 db inputs - the signal peaks nicely at 0db on the compounder. When I flick the switch to +4db inputs then the compounder metre peaks at about -10db on the LED metre. The Mackie manual says that -10 db inputs are semi pro and +4db inputs are pro. Does that mean the Mackie desk is a semi pro desk and that I should be using the -10 db inputs on my compounder?

Finally I have the same input question with regards to my Focusrite Mixmaster. I have tried routing the final mix from my Mackie main mix output into both the -10db inputs and +4db inputs on the Mixmaster using both XLR's and Jacks and come out of the Mixmaster via an spdif lead back into one of the Delta 410 soundcard digital inputs and into a audio track with Logic. This is because I need to then throw Logic's AD limiter over the final WAV to have any chance of getting my final mixes to anything like the same volume/gain as commercial CD's. Do you think I am comprimising my final mixes by recording back into Logic from my Mixmaster? I mean when I play back my final mix WAV - it peaks at 0db on my Mackie faders whereas when I play back a commercial track ripped off a CD, it hits anything from +6db to +12db on my Mackie main metres - is this because they have been pro mastered? Would I be better off purchasing a standalone CDR recorder and going via spdif directly from my Mixmaster into the CDR recorder? Would I get a hotter signal that way?

I know there are a lot of questions above so thanks for taking the time to read this. Cheers.



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Message 2/21                 Date: 13-Oct-05  @  12:49 PM   -   RE: digital & analogue combi gain structure

k

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dude, if you send out a test tone signal from the delta and the level is set to 0 on the delta applet meters and you feed that into the mixer TAPE L/R... whats the meter on the desk reading?

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 3/21                 Date: 17-Oct-05  @  02:14 PM   -   RE: digital & analogue combi gain structure

Dominic

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Cheers K. If you can cope with my silly rantings then check link.



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Message 4/21                 Date: 17-Oct-05  @  04:11 PM   -   RE: digital & analogue combi gain structure

milan

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Message 5/21                 Date: 17-Oct-05  @  04:11 PM   -   RE: digital & analogue combi gain structure

Dominic

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K - link doesn't work. I asked the same question on SOS forum and Mike asked me about tape inputs aswell.......are you saying that I should plug my soundcard outputs into my Mackie tape returns because they have a -10db / +4db selectable switch?



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Message 6/21                 Date: 17-Oct-05  @  04:13 PM     Edit: 17-Oct-05  |  04:15 PM   -   RE: digital & analogue combi gain structure

milan

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whats your thread called? or your nick?

edit: nevermind, found it



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Message 7/21                 Date: 17-Oct-05  @  04:53 PM   -   RE: digital & analogue combi gain structure

Dominic

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Milan, Cheers dood. We must be posting at roughly the same time cos I keep missing your replys till I reply to my reply. Cheers alot for checkin' bruv.



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Message 8/21                 Date: 17-Oct-05  @  06:07 PM   -   RE: digital & analogue combi gain structure

milan

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hmm... not to get too deep into this... but do generate a sine test tone at like -0.5 dbFS in something like wavelab, reset all the gain pots and faders to their nominal position (0bb usually), and route it thru all your gear as you would during a mixing/mastering session, and back to your computer. fiddle with i/o gain settings until you get the same strenght signal back to the pc. that should be your "ideal" gain setting in your system.

what i dont get is this:

quote
when I play back my final mix WAV - it peaks at 0db on my Mackie faders whereas when I play back a commercial track ripped off a CD, it hits anything from +6db to +12db on my Mackie main metres


it looks to me you are mixing well bellow the maximum level, but do you normalise your mixes at the end of the process? you said you put a normalizer across the mix at the end. that should ensure your mix peaks at 0dbFS, which means when you play it back it should peak at the same level as your commercial cd's. yes? no? does it?

i'm not sure if you're getting this: the max level (0dbFS) coming from your pc should approach maximum level on your mixer, NOT 0db on the meters. dBFS (full scale) and 0dB on the mixer are NOT the same value. all of those are RELATIVE values which have nothing to do with each other!

if you dont know this yet, then read this SOS article first, esp. the "DAT'S THE WAY TO DO IT"
chapter, because its crucial to your question.

bah... yer making me type even tho i dont want to :P

look... the process should in praxis work like this (this is the gain structure in a digital/analog studio):

you want to mix outside of the pc, right? set all your logic output channels/busses to zero to ensure you get a good, strong signal out of the box (approcahing max level on the meters without overloading). then set the gain on the mixer input channels until you get a good, strong signal INTO the mixer (again, approaching max level w/out overloading). then when you mix, set the main out faders as high up as it will go without overloading. THEN set the input gain on your mix compressor untill it peaks at zero, or whatever its nominal setting is called. then to send it back to the pc, set its output gain until the input meters in your pc are reading almost 0dbFS (max value without overloading).

basicaly, you always want to send as strong a signal as possible from one unit to the next one, without overloading anything. you HAVE to fiddle with the knobs from song to song, or even during a mix.

anyway, read that article, learn about different dB levels and voltage, and come back to us (i know you will 



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Message 9/21                 Date: 17-Oct-05  @  06:11 PM   -   RE: digital & analogue combi gain structure

milan

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actually, read this first: Decibels Explained

somewhere on the web, there is an article explainin EVERYTHNG about different kinds of dB's and all the rest, just cant find it right now... grrrr



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Message 10/21                 Date: 17-Oct-05  @  06:18 PM   -   RE: digital & analogue combi gain structure

milan

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oh fcuk it, just go here and read : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel

read about dBu, dBv, and dBfs



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